Web Designer versus Xtreme Pro

[instinctive.de]

I would also very much appreciate Xara use this opportunity to ditch the web design stuff from Xtreme and convert it into a single-purpose graphics design package. Web development is done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, not a graphics program The *graphics* of a web site are created with a graphics package, true.

[steve.ledger]

Web development is done with HTML, CSS and JavaScript, not a graphics program The *graphics* of a web site are created with a graphics package, true.

Clearly this is no longer the case, true?

[instinctive.de]

Clearly this is no longer the case, true?

It should be the case though. A web site is not simply a bunch of statically arranged graphics (which is what Xara Web Designer / Xtreme produce). It's a *semantic* kind of thing... with things like "This menu goes to the bottom right corner of the browser window, with 10 pixels margin", or "This blue bar is 10 pixels high and 50% the width of the browser window, with the other 50% tiled with "foo.jpg"", etc... this is all stuff that you can't do with the Xara approach.

Needless to say, as soon as you want to do anything dynamic where contents and/or graphics or structure come from databases, you need to look into 'real' solutions anyway.

Sorry, I really don't want to offend anyone it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!

[covoxer]

it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!

Exactly. Now just imagine that every time you mention hmtl, most unexperienced users who just want to design their own web site, feel stabbed or offended or humiliated. So...

[instinctive.de]

Now just imagine everytime a 14-year old feels the urgent need to visit their grandma 200 miles away, they cannot go themselves because they don't have a driver's license.

Guess what - they'll just need to ask their parents

[covoxer]

Or use a WD!
May be not as correct as with parets, but still their own way!

Seriously, you know, that the most humiliating is the common opinion that lack of html knowledge makes you unable to design your own site. This is humiliating because there are a lot of great designers who can create great designs but they have to learn html and spend a lot of time actually coding, not designing, just to make their desings to the web. Sometimes it's getting pathetic to see how experienced html coder laugh and make jokes of the real artist. Why? Because html coding is not an art, design creation is an art. And you can learn everyone to code html, even machine, while it's not always easy to learn someone to create art. So, the parents joke may be treated this way - do not ever, under any circumstances use any vector drawing software! Your parents have to do all this manually in the Post Script because you are to young to have a license to hand code Post Script!

[卡丁人]

是的，我是设计后导出html，剩下的交给程序员，各有分工，编码我一窍不通也没兴趣研究！:

[steve.ledger]

Here we go again, the same old broken record spinning up again

It should be the case though.

That comes across so very luddite and blinkered, no-one can take seriously a non-objective point of view.

Alexander if Xara Web Designer offends you because it's putting power in the hands of those who do not know HTML, then all I can say is 'Get over it"..

We all respect your right to your preferred methods and opinion and no-one is going out there way to force anyone to adopt a graphical approach to web design if they don't wish to. Any solution is the 'real solution' if the tool is understood and used as intended.
It's just an option for anyone who wants to take it.
Choice is good right?

So please try not to force your way of thinking onto others with your bullish comments, if you can't accept WD and see it as blasphemy, then please choose another subject to discuss at TG which we can happily join in with and remain friends. OK?

@卡丁人
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[handrawn]

....this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!

I remember being miffed when electronic piano started taking over from 'real' acoustic piano - where are the harmonics!! - well given time the harmonics came through - they'll never be the same [IMO] but now electronic and acoustic instruments co-exist quite happily.

Speaking in analogy the ease of WD is akin to the ease of an early portable electronic keyboard versus good old Steinway - and I think the WD way of doing HTML is going to have a similar impact.

Give it time to mature

I could be wrong, I don't code HTML, but I have been here before - I sense a sea-change...

[BONES]

Sorry, I really don't want to offend anyone it's just that I'm a hardcore web developer and this "Use a graphics package for a whole web site" thing hurts as if someone stabbed me!

Well, I'm not and, as web design is the arse-end of graphic art, I don't want to have to learn some whole new application just to keep my band's website up to date and looking fresh. That's why PageMill still works perfectly for my needs and I have never felt the need to upgrade to something more powerful or modern.

Then there's 2) *Implementation*: Which is implement a layout in HTML/CSS that encapsulates the previously (graphically) drafted layout and design, with possibly added functionality.

Which is boring and it's great that something like Xara can take the tedium out of it for us, don't you think? Simplifying "implementation" for us artists is very liberating.

I wish Xara would listen to us users and stop making toys which are not very useful to the professional graphics community at large and get some decent developers working on their core big money product.

Sorry pal, but I am a professional graphic artist and I am 100% happy with the development of Xara since I first bought v2.0 almost 10 years ago. I have all the tools I need to get on with the job and do the best work of my career. Sure, there are things I don;t use every day, PDF export and the like, but when I need some of that, it's great that I don't need to go to another application to do it.

Anyhoo, personalities aside, I might be in the minority but I love the fact that Xtreme is a jack of all trades. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it is the Master of Jacks of All Trades, which gives us the best of both worlds. 6 or 7 years ago I had a dozen or more graphics applications on my system for various things but as more and more stuff has been added to Xara, I've been able to cull things considerably. Today, I only have Xtreme and Combustion installed and they fill every possible need I might have, from trimming/cropping images through all manner of motion graphics and GUI design to websites and even producing finished art for album covers. I can do Flash, I can do animated GIFs, I can do anything my heart [or my client] desires, all without having to flip from one thing to another, using multiple formats, creating intermediate files and taking way too long. It's brilliant!

I imagine that Web Designer is supposed to introduce people to Xara, in the hope of enticing them to trade up to Xtreme, so I imagine all the goodies from Web Designer will be included in the next version. I sure hope so anyway, because I'm not going to bother with some template-driven web designer when I already have something far more flexible in Xtreme 4, even without the new features.

The other area I would hope to see worked on is the speed of the engine, as I still have trouble with very complex drawings that holds me back far more than any perceived lack of tools. I also wonder how representative the people active on the forum here are?