Off-topic

[Sean Sedwards]

I will only delete posts which I consider likely to cause 'a breach of the peace' (i.e. a riot) or incite racial hatred. Comments aimed at individuals or specific religious, ethnic and racial groups are likely to cause offence and make others want to retaliate (sound familiar?). The thread would quickly degenerate into a stream of flaming posts.

Regards - Sean

[Eric]

"which *I* consider "

And there's the rub...

Don't mistake 'flaming' for passionate debate on any subject, and right now people are passionate.

Let them say what they want, take a back seat.
I hope others agree.

Eric

[This message was edited by Eric on September 15, 2001 at 06:29.]

[Ross Macintosh]

In the days since the tragedy I've found it very hard to put in words how I feel. It has been a rollercoaster of emotions. There are thoughts for the dead, for the direct survivors, for those who have lossed loved ones, and for those whose lives are in limbo until they learn the fate of their loved ones. (Aparently there are injured survivors in the hospitals who have not been identified. That must be incredibly stressfull on those who have loved ones feared dead).

There are thoughts of the perpitrators and their motivations. Thoughts of the reactions to the events. Thoughts of the future implications. Thoughts of a new world that will emerge out of the events, the response, and the implications.

I am greatly troubled by the blame being put on peoples of Muslim faith when I see the "Extreme Fundamentalists" as more motivated by deep racism and anger over political events than anything to do with their religious beliefs. It is too damned convienient to see some sort of 'holy war' as behind this and in front of us. The World's responses - aimed at eliminating terrorism - will never work if the goal is only to kill all terrorists. I fear such a goal will only bring us into a world that has even more terrorist activity. Instead I hope the anger, racism and political realities that I see as behind 'extremists' and 'terrorists' will be addressed in the new world that emerges. We need to work hard at having a world were people aren't motivated to carry out terrorist attacks.

These recent attacks escalate what will be targets in the future acts of terrorism. Symbols of political power, economic power, and America as targets will, without a doubt, expand to nuclear power plants, chemical refinaries, etc. I fear there is the potential of nuclear weapons being used in future terrorist attacks! I hope in the face of such realities, world leaders will respond effectively to restore security to the world. I believe this challenge they face on our behalf is more difficult than just bombing the shit out of some terrorist training camps. Actions must support moderates and not drive more to extremism.

I'm also critical of how the crisis is being handled. While I'm very sympathetic to the difficulty leaders face in dealing with the crisis I fear they are making mistakes. One fear relates to the financial markets. If the markets reopen to spectacular loses the terrorists will have another 'victory' to gloat over. The events will have not only have scared our emotions and put terror in our dreams, it will have hurt most people in the western world - in the pocket book. I find the lack of leadership on facing that possibility appalling. I would have expected the President to appeal to his people to BUY stocks when the markets reopen. Send a message to the world that America's markets are strong and a message on the solidarity of the public. I recall when the South Korean currency collapsed a few years ago, Koreans by the thousands, in acts of support to their beloved country were freely giving their wedding rings to their government so the gold could be melted and the diamonds sold. Those acts sent a powerful message to the world. I think a strong stock market in the coming days would send a significant message to the terrorists and the world. Again, I find it amazing the President has not been urging 'support' of the markets at this time.

I am also critical of all the pathetic images of firefighters picking over the piles of rubble. I say 'pathetic' because it appears as far too little resources are being applied to the clean up effort. I'm amazed they have not brought in the Army Corp of Enginneers to take over recovery/rescue/cleanup efforts. They are the world's foremost experts at mobilizing urgent engineering efforts. I could imagine that by this point they'd have built a vehicle overpass over the adjacent West Street to allow large dump trucks to start moving debris to barges. I think it is important to show the world that the recovery efforts are as significant as the resources of the USA can muster. What I see on the news and in the newspapers strikes me as embarassing.

I am also critical of the weak efforts being made to identify the missing. I see on TV huge lines of greiving people waiting to fill out extensive questionaires about their missing loved ones. Apparently many of the people who after hours of waiting find out upon seeing the form that they don't have all the information they need to complete it at hand. Similarly there are huge lines to see lists of who is in the hospitals. I'm critical because surely in this day and age it is possible to handle these tasks more efficiently!

There I've had a little rant. I am trying very hard to remain optimistic in the face of this crisis and the ramifications I fear. Before I post this message I want to say thanks to you all for sharing how you feel and a special thanks to Ajiscool for highlighting that the terrorist's actions are clearly against the spirit of Islam practiced by the vast majority of Muslims.

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[rgremill]

The criticisms of the U.S.'s handling of this situation are ridiculous! I doubt any other country could have handled this situation better.

[raffon]

I received this via e-mail today from a friend in New York state. I removed the name for obvious reasons.

This came via a former student and I share it with you as a profound and
moving statement of our times.

Dear Friends,
The following was sent to me by my friend ******. ****** is an
Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I
know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here
is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

Dear **** and whoever else is on this email thread:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean
killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,
but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we
do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am
from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt
in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.
I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in
the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing
to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators.
They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and
clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A
few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled
orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are
millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in
mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all
destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.
Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the
Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn
their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done.
Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care?
Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least
get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,
only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe
the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too
fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping
bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this
horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the
Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true
fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to
be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as
needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing
innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on
the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would
die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's
much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd
have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?
You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and
the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.
That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right
there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem
ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the
West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those
lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better
from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west
would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and
millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

******

TANSTAAFL

[Eric]

Does anybody know how our NY members are?
Could the moderators somehow find out?

eric

[Ross Macintosh]

rgremill - I realize it is easy (for me) to sit back and be an armchair quarterback. I am sympatetic to the difficulties US leaders face in these difficult times. My criticsm comes from concern. I'm sure to many Americans it might seem 'unpatriotic' or 'unAmerican' to express any criticsm of how things are being handled. I can understand that. I am not an American and so issues of patriotism do not apply. I add my critical comments because I believe more can be done. They certainly aren't made to take pot-shots at leaders or rescue heros or in anyway undermine what is being done.

My comments about the stock markets are I think relevant to all of us. As a gesture towards stability that I -one person- can do, I am not selling any of my stocks even if for my own family's finances it might be the right thing to do. My position - taken because I don't want to contribute to the terrorists goals succeeding - has already cost me money. (The Toronto Stock Exchange closed yesterday at its lowest level in two years). It will be an embarassment to the USA if when its markets open they suffer panic selling. I urge others to also sit tight and BUY if you can.

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[roman]

That the person whose letter Raffon shared with us is right. I hope that US government and whole world would be able to make the "gentle and human, but precise and sharp cut" in this case.

[Bob C.]

Ross:

The concern in your comments seems evident to me. I am semi-retired (mostly not working now) so I have spent many, many hours watching and listening to the on going events.

In addition my future income will be derived from investments in the market and I’m waiting to turn 59.5 (real soon now) to begin to collect on some of it. So this is very personal for my wife and me. The Asian markets dipped when they first opened but leveled off without any significant changes and the dollar is actually firmer against both the euro and the yen today.

OK some points to share: Two days ago I saw an insurance investment officer interviewed. He said the biggest insurance companies in the world are involved in this issue ( about 5 or 6) and they will be able to meet the claims with no, he actually said zero, chance of going bankrupt. He estimated the cost to be around $15 Billion US. The biggest man made claim before this was about $750 million US for the LA riots.

The largest amount in recent history was the hurricane in south Florida which was an actual claim that paid $15 Billion US as well. This amount was paid with no serious effect on the rates or the insurance companies - but the most interesting part for me is the following: Southern Florida’s economy dipped immediately after the disaster struck but with all the money poured in and construction activity etc. etc. it very quickly increased to the point were Florida has the 2nd or 3rd best economy in the States! NY will have insurance, government, corporate and private money pouring in.

Some facts known with respect to removing the debris are:
10,000 TONS removed as of Thursday afternoon! Inspite of continuing bomb threats that cause continuing painful stoppages of the efforts.

The collapse of a third building with the threat of several more (3) buildings triggering newly installed motion sensor alarms.

Hand to hand bucket removal of debris so as to not further injure any survivors that might be found with listening devices.

When other countries have major earth quakes the US sends specialized teams to help dig them out so I’m guessing what we are doing in NY is the best possible approach.

[gwpriester]

I just got in from Boston this morning at 3:00 AM via Greyhound and have only now gotten back on line.

Riding the Greyhound 2000 miles from Boston to Albuquerque I saw flags flying from almost every home we passed.

Many commercial marquees in shopping and business malls changed the usually banal message to simply, God Bless America.

Like those of us who will never forget where we were on the day John F. Kennedy was shot, I will never forget the day that this senseless act of violence was committed on the world.

My heart is wrenched every time I think of the hundreds of thousands of persons whose lives were permanently changed by this disaster. The vision so vividly shown over and over on TV will be premanently etched into my heart and my mind.

God bless American and give us the strength to pick up the pieces and to move on. And to have the sense and compassion to do what has to be done.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~garypriester">
Be it ever so humble...</a>