Is tracing cheating?

[Ross Macintosh]

I don't know what xara purists Gary refers to. Throughout my involvement with the Xara Forums there has been no rules, official or otherwise, regarding xara only. There has been efforts to have the postings relate to Xara.

There have been vector purists who for reasons of their own try to do their xara images without the use of bitmaps. Sometimes their chatter on the subject might well make others feel that other forms of drawings are less welcome. You know how I have been posting xara images that make extensive use of bitmaps & filter effects - nobody has had the nerve to tell me to cut it out because it isn't "real" xara work. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Gary's Xara image is 100% xara (not that that matters). His importing an underlay created in another program should never have been considered unethical by anyone. Gasp --- Next thing we know we'll be considered cheaters if we sketch out our ideas on paper as we plan our designs! The whole 'cheating' thing is a weak concept - anything that isn't completely spontaneous has the potential to be called cheating. Looking at a live model - that would be cheating too if we expect artists to just intuitively "know' their subjects without reference. (We all have seen those who boast that they created their work without any reference pics or model - the implication being that that gives the work added significance - or perhaps an excuse for its lack of brilliance).

Laypeople do not understand artistic creativity; yet, they are the audience for most art. When we create art we are exposing something of ourselves to outside scrutiny. Our vulnerability causes us to internalize our perceptions of the expectations of those laypeople and have it influence our decisions. Seeking affirmation and approval is a very strong motivator, affecting even those who try to shake off its shackles to experience artistic freedom. Even when they don't want to be, artists are members of society and can't help but be affected by its values and culture. The laypeople's ideas (however illogical they may be) about artistic "cheating", impact on the perception of almost all artists. It is a staightjacket! Seek freedom by challenging your values. You may not break free of them but are likely to know more of yourself and others.

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[bmh216]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Cheating requires a perpetrator and a victim. If you don't make a victim of yourself, or of those who view your art, then there is no cheating. Such an artist has freedom to create unencumbered by creativity-deadening influences of society. Such an artist doesn't cheat - even when doing things others perceive as cheating.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure that I agree, Ross. Cheating on an exam might make you the victim and the perpetrator. But as to "if you don't make a victim of yourself, then there is no cheating", that I find hard to swallow. If I take a superb human model that I found on the internet (I cannot model people, at least not yet), load it into a Lightwave scene and render it, I must, by my own honesty and integrity, inform the viewer what I have done.

Does my informing them remove the "cheating" aspect? Yes, I think so. But, what have I accomplished from an artistic standpoint. I have been honest to myself, and yet produced something in which I can take no pride. This is primarily why I will not use pre-made, ready-to-use models in my work. I will learn to model them myself, for my own peace of mind. This is why I cannot bring myself to use Poser (again, no offense to the Poser users out there). Did you ever think about that name, and what it means? POSER. What is a Poser, in modern vernacular? A fake, a fraud, someone trying to live up to something they'll never be (Oh God, I've lit the flames now [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) Not that it refers to the users of Poser, I just think the name is a bit funny considering its' use in modern jargon.

Back to the point, I don't think my son is "cheating" by tracing, and he does learn alot by repeating the strokes of someone with a much higher skill level than himself. I was just pointing out that I can always tell that the work is something he could not have done (yet) without tracing, and he always lets on that he did in fact trace, and I can really tell he takes no pride in a tracing of someone else's work. If he draws something nice himself, he will hang it on the 'fridge and show it to Mom and be very proud of it. Fundamental difference.

As to music, I grew up playing guitar, and of course you always learn others work before ever attempting anything of your own. Those with prodigal talent often spin away from this very early, and begin writing their own compositions at an early age, but most of us must toil with copying the work of others for a long time before reaching a skill level that allows improvisation or composition. Many bands make a nice living coming as close as possible to the sounds of the original song. These are called "Cover Bands", and for good reason: they're simply "covering" the music someone else wrote and performed. Cheating? Naw, they're just trying to make a living, and have a little fun at the same time.

Maya said "people don't get after you for playing another's composition". Think about the Hip-Hop stars that sample others music and use it in their own songs. People get after them (namely copyright attorneys!) But that's not to this point, and is only an observation.

As to the Xara X Forum, I hate to say this, since I used to frequent the forum often, but there is a bit of snobbery going on over there. If it's not Xara, 100% Xara, designed, made, drawn, created, textured in Xara it's not "allowed". God forbid you import an EPS or another file. This attitude is just detrimental to the creative process. Not everyone over there is of this view, obviously, and moderator Gary is seemingly open-minded, but there are those who will ignore/flame anything that isn't 100% Xara. Their loss, I guess.

I see I've rambled on enough here. Very interesting thread. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I'm just expressing, as they say, "my 2 cents".

Brett

[Gary David Bouton]

I've gotten some static from XARA purists in the past about using my own modeling work as the basis for a drawing.

Now, is it cheating if you trace over what you yourself created? The bottom image was done in XARA and I deliberately rendered the models in wireframe to create a visual difference here as an example.

Cheating??? Hmmm???

My Best,

Gary David Bouton
Gary@GaryDavidBouton.com
Free education! The Writings Web site
and the updated GaryWorld Gallery is pretty okay, too.

[dalel]

This is such a great discussion!

I have learned that in art, photography and writing, that it pays to copy other good artists, writers, and photographers, to learn how and why they did what they did. This is a standard learning technique, and a person learns what they like and don't like, and slowly develop their own style.

Once I found my style in my disciplines, I began to use any means at my disposal to achieve my creative vision. Nothing was "cheating", as long as I captured my vision. That is the fun of art!

The methods became less important than the final creative product, for me.

I still wish I had better drawing skills, and I know I won't improve those skills by tracing.


Eye Site Web Design
Why, I’m afraid I can’t explain myself, sir, because I’m not myself, you know...
- Lewis Carroll

[Earl]

Wow...long thread. (I just tried to catch up on all of it this morning). Well, I just wanted to say one thing that caught my attention.

It's concerning Brett's point about Poser. I've seen some great things created with Poser - and I've seen some horribly over-used images created with Poser. There have been times, when I looked at an impressive piece of art, that I could not tell that the person was from Poser. It looked that different. Then, of course, when I learned the person was from Poser, I quickly lost interest. I'm not against people using Poser. As Brett has pointed out, modeling humans is an incredibly tough task for any 3d modeler. I've used LightWave heavily for 7 years or so and I'm still not happy with my human models. I probably never will be.

However, I must agree with Brett on his point. For my own personal uses, I could NEVER feel good about what I create if I used other people's models. Even packaged models from 'royalty-free' programs or what-have-you. If I can't create it on my own, from scratch, I feel my creation is a fraud. I even go as far as not using any textures made by other people. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

However, I don't look down on the use of these programs (such as Poser). Some people simply don't WANT to learn how to model humans, etc. And that's fine. When it comes to 3d, most people cannot specialize in everything - and that's totally understandable (I say most, because I still strive to master all aspects of the realm - as unrealistic as that may be).

[bearsclover]

I hope everyone will forgive me for resurecting an old moldy thread. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] I stumbled upon this thread (and this forum) by accident. I was enthralled by this particular discussion of "cheating", which has some unique perspectives and viewpoints.

I merely wanted to add, I almost always assume (as someone who is pretty ignorant of 3D apps) that most 3D graphics are using "presets" in any rendering of humans. I guess I am in the opposite side of the spectrum—I don't assume the artist created all the work by themselves (unless told otherwise), I assume that in most cases, some modeling software "helped" them. Not to say that I don't think they put A LOT of hard work into the artwork (some of this stuff is absolutely amazing) but as Gary pointed out, a lot of it has a certain Poser "look". And I am ignorant enough to lump much of 3D art in together, and assume that a lot of work is done with the aid of Poser, or some similar app.

Now I feel like I've been enlightened somewhat—and I am amazed and awed to learn that more people than I realized do create lifelike figures from scratch. How amazing. But, how does a person who is ignorant about the "look" of the Poser works and the "from scratch" works tell the difference? I hope those of you who create "from scratch" make some point to let us "great unwashed" (ignorant of 3D apps) know. You deserve a lot of credit for what you do, IMO.

I also want to agree with others here that I think that tracing is a "cheat" if it prevents a person from developing solid freehand drawing skills, (if drawing freehand is something that they are attempting to do, or want to appear as if they are doing). And yes, I do think it's important to give credit where it is due—if you used someone else's preset or model, say so! No shame in that!

Many of us feel there is a marked difference in work where someone else's model is used, and work created from scratch, so we'd like to know. This is not to say that we are unable to appreciate work that used presets or models, since (as I've said before) some of this work is also beyond amazing. But still—we'd like to know.

And, in 2-D art (which is what I do), the same principle applies. I don't like having to constantly tell people, "No, I drew it myself. NO, I didn't trace a photo. No, I can draw it all by myself." It matters to me that I did it all freehand, and I want people to know that. In my opinion, there is a different dynamic and level of understanding in artwork that is drawn with a solid knowledge of anatomy (for instance) and so forth. Also the ability to draw from one's imagination (no reference or model) cannot be achived by tracing or using other shortcuts. Only drawing—and lots of it—will help an artist develop the knowledge and understand to be able draw imaginary images "from scratch". And I believe it's a skill worth having.

I feel that with the popularity of tracing these days (in 2D art especially, in both digital work and "traditional" work) that more and more people are assuming that artwork is traced! And I want them to know, that in least in my case, I did draw it freehand! I guess it's the pride in me, but darn it, I worked hard to be able to draw freehand and I want credit for that. (My abilites weren't merely some "gift" that I was automatically endowed with at birth—I filled many sketchbooks and spent many hours to get to the point—whatever that point is—that I am at now.)

[This message was edited by bearsclover on October 20, 2002 at 18:52.]