I have to admit, Illy's pretty darn good

[handrawn]

no wonder 99% of people who use it have a pirate copy

hyperbole

I can quite happily accept it is not for you Frank and you are entitled to think it is crap - but that does not mean it is crap and it does not make it bad value for money in it's target markets which are corporate

just like the vector editor that I happen to know you do use, illustrator comes with a 30day trial period, long enough to check it out in comparision with said other editor which I know you have had for a long time

eyebrows are always raised elsewhere when people say they buy product without taking full advantage of trial period..but I've done it myself and it is annoying true

the reason I said you were being silly is this - in a computer warehouse [hypermarket] I have a whole load of choice - just recently I needed a new color printer and I could have spent anything from 200 GBP to 2000 GBP or more - the higher end machines do all sorts of things I simply don't need, and they are sometimes rather complicated to setup and or use ... this does not make them crap, and it does not make them a rip off, just because I can print perfectly well from a much lower end machine - it just means they are oriented to a different set of requirements and environments

[Big Frank]

you are basing your reply on the premise that highly priced products are inherently better than lower priced products

that is simply not true, it is, in fact, silly

[handrawn]

its not a premise Frank - its a specific case [illustrator] and an analogy [colour printers]

of course it is not true that all expensive stuff is better, but by exactly the same token not all inexpensive stuff is better either - depends a lot on what you need

it doesn't do to confuse value for money with suitability for purpose

in this case illustrator was not suitable for you, and a 'bad purchase' in your specific case

but crap it is not

@ BOB I really like that illustratoin too Bob, well done [I wish I had more time to explore illustrator, particularlly the brushes, which are far better than xara's but hey life is getting shorter by the day....]

[Big Frank]

a can of beans at 34p is suitable for the purpose, at £3.34 it's still fit for the purpose but hugely overpriced

[handrawn]

34p can of beans versus £3.34 can of beans bundled with a shopping cart full of other stuff you don't need

[pauland]

34p can of beans versus £3.34 can of beans bundled with a shopping cart full of other stuff you don't need

LOL, there's nothing like a bit of exaggeration.. ..even ironic when you point out in a later post why the 34p can is inferior to the £3.34 one!

Just think of the extra stuff as ingredients that will sit in the kitchen cupboard - some will be used, some will expire their best before date.

Some people will not be happy with Tesco Value, if they've lived an extravagant life on Heinz Beans.

Whichever way the wind blows, as it were..

[handrawn]

[pauland]

I have CS5.5 Web Design Premium . I don't use half of it. One program I use heavily, others a lot some hardly at all.

The program I use heavily has no equivalent, the others do.

I don't religiously upgrade the Adobe software. I started with one program and then I really need two and so inevitably one you use two Adobe products one of the suites becomes more cost effective.

My upgrade path has rarely been because of killer features, it has been because of my clients. My clients often use Adobe software. They give me assets created in Adobe software and expect back assets for use in Adobe software. When one of my clients engaged me on a project for $7,000 and they bought CS5 I was forced to upgrade from CS3 to CS5. The CS5.5 release included mobile development features and that was a required upgrade on my part.

For me, the value for money aspect of the software is less relevant. The cost of using Adobe software is, for me, the cost of doing business with many of my clients.

If a client was using product X and I was going to work with them and the money was right, I would buy product X.

I mention this because generally the circles in which Adobe software legitimately moves, isn't buying it purely on a feature basis, or value for money basis - Adobe software has become the common language of interchange between companies involved in Media. Besides being the common language of asset interchange, it is also the common language of skillsets amongst people - there's an expectation that you know how to use Adobe software.

If I was an Artist/Graphic designer working on commissions to produce pure artwork rather than work in a pipeline, then I would be interested in price and probably giving non-Adobe products serious consideration. We all know that for artwork Xara is capable of anything illustrator can do - when the right artist is using it.

At one time I used Xara Xtreme heavily and indeed made good use of XWD for projects where the Adobe pipeline came into play. Lately that isn't the case.

[handrawn]

We all know that for artwork Xara is capable of anything illustrator can do - when the right artist is using it.

you know I get a serious attack of the raised eyebrows heavenwards whenever anyone says anything like that - what [I hope] you mean is that the vector drawing tools in xara will do everything the vector drawing tools in illustrator will do .... but it doesn't stop there, there are lots of other issues eg color space to name but one ...

anyhow I've probably said enough

[pauland]

Lets just say "for most intents and purposes", then your eyebrows can return to the normal position .. ;-)