I've nothing against tracing Gary, anything that makes life simpler and at the same time learn from. Thanks for all the diagrams, I've enough work there to keep me occupied at tracing, shading and shadows and that tip with the straight line is great, I just tried it on a box I'd finished and found some of the edges out and it made it easy to correct but the most surprising thing was, I was'nt to far out in the first place.

Stygg