Pantone, CMYK, RGB and Hex differences in Xara Designer Pro X

[handrawn]

but a screen grab is no use with xara, that is the point - you have to print to see the colours accurately in anything other tham rgb

[ClubleyM]

but a screen grab is no use with xara, that is the point - you have to print to see the colours accurately in anything other tham rgb

Ok Maybe I'm totally missing the point here, to which I apologise.

https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/3145-C

That is the reference page from Pantone that provides the Pantone colour, and associated CMYK, RGB and HEX values to achieve that same colour.

The screen grab is not what we are printing from. It's there to show everybody what I see in Xara compared to what is being converted to PDF.

Working from right to left...

The pantone colour 3145C is the colour square on the far right.

Next on the left of that is the CMYK value which is from the web site namely C (100) M (10) Y (29) K (20)

The next swatch is made from the HEX code provided on that website 00778B

The final swatch on the far left is from the web site again, but the RGB values.

If all those colours are meant to represent the same colour , why are the two on the right different on screen AND when it prints?
When I put those colours in other software, they all match the same tones as the RGB and Hex.

If a customer provides me artwork which contains Pantone colours, or CMYK values, and Xara is translating these colours incorrectly, then why would Xara provide the facility to work with these colours knowing that the print off will look nothing like it should do?

[mwenz]

There are a whole lot of issues here. And in my current condition I am likely going to poop out before I can type it all out...

1) The only numbers on the Pantone website that mean much for the representation onscreen of spot colors are the RGB values, for obvious reasons...it's what are monitors use and is in a wider gamut than CMYK.
2) The CMYK numbers on the Pantone website are "uncharacterized" numbers. In other words, they are "dumb" values that mean, well, nothing. They are number values without being transformed by any CMYK color space both as regards a CMYK working color space and/or an ouput color profile.
3) Xara has no ability for having/using a CMYK document color space. I have long asked that LittleCMS be integrated. It isn't and likely will never be though it is an OpenSource color management system.
3) Xara only transforms Pantone and/or colors to an output profile in the case of PDFs. It uses, by default, a rather generic profile by default but the color values when working with CMYK are transferred to a PDF accurately.
4) The proper Pantone numbers use LAB values to characterize the colorants. This color model is the only accurate model that can then transforms the color values both for onscreen using a document color profile in conjunction with an output color model.
5) Xara applications cannot use LAB color values.
6) LAB values for spot color is what all professional applications use.
7) Pantone or other spot colors as characterized in Xara applications are only viable when actually using them as spot colors in a PDF and for printing professionally as spot color. However, that said, any print establishment worth a hoot can, using most any RIP or Acrobat, transform the spot color itself to CMYK values as accurately as any Adobe desktop application from the start.
8) The Pantone LAB values in say AI will vary when converted to CMYK depending upon the document CMYK working space. So using 3145C in conjunction with US SWOP as the document color space, the LAB 3145C swatch is transformed the CMYK values of 100,35.77,38.11,7.5, well different to the dumb numbers on the Pantone website.
9) Nearly every consumer desktop printer I am aware of convert CMYK, well all color values in whatever color space, to RGB inside the print driver and then convert again to CMYK inside the printer's RIP. There are exceptions as to what happens to inkjets with more than 4 inks as to what happens in both the print driver and the internal RIPs. There are also exceptions as regards higher-end PostScript consumer printers as well--some do have CMYK print drivers, for instance as well as some also have Pantone look-up tables.

my arm is getting fatigued and so i'm done for now...

[Acorn]

...[colour spaces reprise]...

Mike, Still my go-to-guy for this worthy detail.

Thanks,
Acorn

[ernie-f]

When I worked with Xara for the first time, I immediately noticed that Xara does not master color management.
But I was surprised by the playful lightness of the application and dealt with the problem of the lack of color management.
Result: color consistent working with Xara is only possible via color tables, color profiles and the subsequent check (soft proof) in Acrobat Pro. Assuming you've calibrated your system.
For very delicate jobs I also have a colour proof made to be absolutely sure.

[jaydear]

A printing issue not mentioned so far is the nature of the surface to be printed, e.g. black anodised aluminum, stainless steel, 'white' powder-coat, black powder-coat, paper, canvas, perspex, etc. and the desired printed finish, e.g. matte, gloss, satin, etc. I used to design a lot of artwork for screen-printing of electronic equipment panels in CorelDRAW which has extensive support for Pantone colours. There are many variables and interactions, so it is very hard to get the desired result on-screen and it boils down to obtaining actual samples. No display that emits light can possibly show the same colours as an article reflecting light and no display can emulate metallic sheen or translucence. The only way to get the desired result is through test prints on the actual medium by the business that will be doing the job/s. It's costly, but the result is good.

[behzad]

Unless your working to produce design for large firms that can dish out money to get their pantone matched across multiple items, your better off just relaxing about color matching to the T and get the job done in CMYK which is cheaper for your clients.

[ClubleyM]

Many thanks for your detailed reply... hope your arm recovered !

So in conclusion, it looks like any customers that send us PDF artwork which contain Pantone Colours, we'll need to replace those colours for an RGB equivalent to ensure that they get printed correctly on our CMYK Printer as Xara can't be relied on to print those Pantone Colours into a close CMYK/RGB match.

Seems a shame, we've been advising our customers if they want a close colour match to send us artwork with Pantone Colours embedded... but if Xara can't convert those correctly then maybe we should be asking for RGB colours instead.

Many thanks again for your answers, much appreciated.

[behzad]

Many thanks for your detailed reply... hope your arm recovered !

So in conclusion, it looks like any customers that send us PDF artwork which contain Pantone Colours, we'll need to replace those colours for an RGB equivalent to ensure that they get printed correctly on our CMYK Printer as Xara can't be relied on to print those Pantone Colours into a close CMYK/RGB match.

Seems a shame, we've been advising our customers if they want a close colour match to send us artwork with Pantone Colours embedded... but if Xara can't convert those correctly then maybe we should be asking for RGB colours instead.

Many thanks again for your answers, much appreciated.

No, your incorrect in that assumption. I have done many pantone work for clients. Just grab yourself a CMYK/Pantone book and punch in the numbers into Xara.

https://polycolors.ca/product/panton...AaAjt8EALw_wcB

[behzad]

See file attached, make sure you set your colors to simulate print colors. It is in the file. Use a pantone process color imaging guide.