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  1. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    St. Louis, Missouri USA
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    123

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    I just had lunch with two old friends from grade school. And, I mean old.

    One of them is an attorney and now I'm sick and my head is spinning.....

    Let one of those idiots start talking and it really gets crazy.

    Maya, in the matter of an automatic copyright. It's not as if you registered a copyright of a particular piece, but no matter what it is, a piece of original art is automatically protected to some degree. You don't see original painting by artists that paint in traditionnal mediums like oils or acrylics in an art gallery, where the artist dipped his brush back in the paint after he signed his name and then added a little c inside of a circle. I have been painting in oils for over 40 years and not one of my originals has a © on it. My mother lived until she was 76 years old, and painted, and was a teacher of painting for more than 60 years. I have almost all of here work in storage and there ain't a © on a piece. But, if someone took a photograph of any one of those paintings and tried to sell it, they are protected as original works of art under the copyright laws. Whether that means it is copyrighted or not I don't know. I just know it is protected under those laws. Your work falls under the same protection.

    This whole © business has really only become an issue since the mass communications and electronic media has exploded into what it is today. Technology is such that anything can be copied and distributed worldwide in seconds.

    As I said, I've been a traditional artist most all of my life, and I have worked in the printing/advertising business for over 35 years. However, this computer generated form of art is brand spanking new to me. I've only been fooling around with it for a matter of months. I'm just learning and it's still really new to me. I started slapping a © on things the day I built my first webpage and now it seems you need to put it on everything.

    As crazy as this whole © thing is in the digital world, I have a question for Ramwolff. Now that you've got your signature with a © all worked out, do you think, maybe, because you did your signature digitally you should put a second © after the signature to protect it? Who know's, someone might come along and copy you signature and try and use it. Ha Ha!!!!

    Seriously, that's how crazy this is. I have been around graphic artist, because of my business, all of my life and I've never seen the whole © matter become such an issue with what appears to be so much fear attached to it.

    I can totally understand the traditional concern of any arist, before this digital age existed, of someone flat out copying their work. Like with a camera or a copy machine or something along those lines. To me that is stealing someone else's work physically, and it has to be controlled.

    But when it comes to the matter of who came up with this or that first gets a little rediculous to me. I mean, if you keep carrying this one step further and you kept going further back in time it would come down to the world having about 3 or 4 original works of art hanging in some museum somewhere and that would be it. Artwork has been copied in style, look and content from the first cave drawings. It is how art is transfered down from one generation to another.

    If any of you went to a traditional art school, you will remember one of the first things you did your very first year was to hike off the the local art museum and do your original copy of a piece of work hanging on a wall. At least that's the way it was done in first year art history at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. And that ain't no little art school.

    So, I posed all of these questions to the attorney I had lunch with and got his opinion. I won't go into all of his legal ramblings, I will simply boil it down to this.

    If you are afraid that someone else is going to copy your work in any manner.....do not publish your work. It is done everyday, and in more cases than not, in perfectly leagal ways.

    There is and instant graemilin on this site of a smiley face......and that is a copyrighted image! The gentleman that first drew a round circle in black with a yellow center and two black eyes and a black upturned mouth to form a smile, first drew that image in his den and he published it and copyrighted it in either 1968 or 1969. I'd have to check for the exact date. He died a few years ago, but his copyright remains for 70 years after his death. Where is the notice on this site, or anywhere else that I see that image, a thousand times a day, stating that it is a derivative work of a copyrighted work?

    Am I missing something or do I just not understand something correctly? The smiley face is exactly what I'm talking about. You see them everyday and although they are not exact physical copies of the original they are look alikes, and I know for a fact it is a copyrighted image.

    How is that any different for someone doing a completely original work of art that looks exactly like someone else's?

    This is why I'm so confused over this.

    The hard fact is, there isn't much anyone can do if someone wants to paint a painting exactly like one you have done except complain, and if you have enough money to pursue it in court, sue for infringement and take the gamble a judge is going to see it your way. If the second artist can come into court and show he has all his original sketches and his original finished painting, he stands just as good a chance to win his case as the plaintiff.

    Now my head hurts and I have to go lay down.

    I'm just way too confused by all of this,

    Jack

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri USA
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    you sure make a good point there!

    The gel buttons fall into the same catagory as my smiley face example.

    Isn't someone making money somewhere down the line?

    I think sooooooo!

    Jack

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Daegu - South Korea
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    105

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    Old Dog,

    yes, I also think that the differences between:

    - Flag 1 and Flag 2
    - Apples Aqua Gel Button and similar buttons here or anywhere else
    - the original smiley and others

    all fall into the same category.

    So, you are allowed to recreate these for your own purpose, but you may not put a copyright symbol on it, display it publically as your own work or make money with it directly (selling to a client) or indirectly (banner ads, partnership programs)? Is this the point?

    This is a really important question, maybe, I should get the book, too...

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    Betwixt & Between
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    I've been purusing the info at the copyright site----whew!!! It'll more than make one's head spin, especially adding in the new items regarding digital copies, etc...with computer use. It gets worse and worse. When I read through the section on copyright ownership it makes it clear that transfer of original copyright requires not only a written instrument but also an actual hand signature to be considered valid----so you can not give away copyright ownership just by saying something...it has to be given specifically to some particular person or group in writing and then hand signed...then this document can be used as an execution of transfer and recorded. So it's not so easy to lose copyright, and in this regard, I still retain mine even without using © on any of the images or in spite of any conversations on the forum or anything said---which would not be binding.
    "Publication"...that is another sticky one...are our images considered published when we post them here for others to view??????? Or is is possible we can claim all our images are for "teaching purposes" and they are not published. If posting them on the forums constitutes "publication" then there follows the problem with these works and that section on "Mandatory Deposit" of copies and the $30 fee for each submission---whew, that can get expensive real quick!!!!!!!!!?????????? "All works under copyright protection that are published in the United States are subject to the mandatory deposit provision of the copyright law." If this somehow does not apply to digital art, please correct me. So are we "publishing" here????? Or are we safe in that regard?????

    This is really a can of worms, isn't it....

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
    ---As The Crow Hunts For Worms---
    Maya
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do, so throw off the bowlines, sail away from safe harbor, catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, Dream, Discover."
    -Mark Twain

  5. #75
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    On the note about the "smiley" and gel buttons, etc....
    Section 103 reads, "(a) The subject matter of copyright as specified by section 103 includes compilations and derivative works, but protection for a work employing preexisting material in which copyright subsists does not extend to any part of the work in which such material has been used unlawfully."
    "(b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material."
    It sounds like "derivative" works can and do exist, Jack. With permission of the first author of the work any changes made by another can be separately copyrighted...the derivative piece would be shared if agreed upon...I suppose the parties would have to work out how to split royalties if the image was sold.
    More worms for the can---

    ---As The Crow Digs---
    Maya
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do, so throw off the bowlines, sail away from safe harbor, catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, Dream, Discover."
    -Mark Twain

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    RWC, CA, USA
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    4,472

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    Jack Said: As crazy as this whole © thing is in the digital world, I have a question for Ramwolff. Now that you've got your signature with a © all worked out, do you think, maybe, because you did your signature digitally you should put a second © after the signature to protect it? Who know's, someone might come along and copy you signature and try and use it. Ha Ha!!!!End Quote.

    Actually that's what I meant when I posted last night that I had missed my workout at the gym in order to create a digital signature, complete with date and the ©. I thought it was so good I wanted to share it, I did 3 with different fills, they look fabu. Then my mind actually kicked in and said NOT TO post it. It is my actual signature, as I would sign anything with, just more cleaned up and legible. So I thought better of it.

    As I had stated before, signing a piece that was created from a tutorial, a replica that you did all the work to create is not your design, but it was your work. So a signature is all that is probably allowed. Now with your original designs I would create a nice signature with a © and the date to slap on various originals. So I missed a workout but I have that ready to go for my next piece.

    I guess I shoud go onto the site and remove all my originals, which ALL of them are and re-submit them with the copyright signature on them but it's too much work. So I won't.

    I will just have to rely on the automatic copyright laws to protect me for those posted here already.

    Whew.....This thread is heading towards 80 posts now. WOW!!!

    RAMWolff

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    Richard

    ---Wolff On The Prowl---

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri USA
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    A can of worms with no bottom.....

    I'm not certain about digital art because I'm so new to the whole thing.

    I do know that if I were to show any of my traditional paintings in any type of a public showing, at least the way it was years ago, that would be considered the same as publishing. In a sense, at least. It gets a little different when you start talking about actual publication in a magagzine or book etc. That's sort of clear.

    I've never had any experience with publishing any of my works of art, but as an amateur photographer, I have had many photographs published. Ooops, I guess because I've been published and made money at it I can't call myself an amateur photographer. Gee, am I now a professional? Hee, Hee!

    Like I said, I don't know for certain, but it would seem to me that by posting a work on the internet, in a way constitutes publication. The reason I think that, is because you don't have to sell something in order for it to be published, and putting it on the internet is putting it on display for the public to see. If I gave a photograph to a church paper or something similar, and they printed it and distributed it to their members, technically you've been published. It works that way for writers! Same as all the vanity press publishers in the 40's and 50's. Writers paid to have their work published, but it was published.

    It just really gets confusing. I did what you're doing with regards to the U.S. Copyright publications, only I gave up before you and stopped reading. It was making me crazy. Too many if's, and's, wherefore's and why's for me to stay at it.

    This digital thing is all relatively new and things keep changing as new precedences are set. That's why this whole matter of Napster.com was so involved. And that, to my simple little mind shouldn't have been difficult at all. They clearly were distributing copyrighted music with no compensation being paid to the artist's or publishing companies, but it took over two years in court and they haven't stopped anything. Once Napster was shut down, 30 more sites popped up in it's place. The reason it all took so long to settle in court was this internet business. There just weren't any precedences to go back on, and that is how the leagal system in this country works. If your case is something completely new to the courts you can find yourself going all the way to the Supreme Court for a final ruling, because lower courts are afraid to make a decision and having it tossed later. The old, I'm not gonna say, you say..... I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to have been an adult when Rowe vs Wade was decided, and let me tell you that was one huge can of worms in this country. There still are people that aren't happy with that one.

    I've just come to this conclusion as to all of us here. What I post here is my work and I'm sharing it with, what I've come to consider friends on a particular internet site. I'm sharing it to show these friends what I've done and, to get their input and to help others to learn and to learn myself. I will put my © on my work because this is the internet, but I'm not going to get upset if someone like yourself, or Ross, or any of the other's that are sharing their work regularly want to take an image of mine and do something different to it and show me something else I could do with it.

    I think it's all a matter of morality. Morally, I never would take anything anyone else had done here and try and do something with it for my own gain, and I don't really think any of the people I've made friends with here would do that to me.

    I guess we have to just trust each other and hope the unsuspecting outsider doesn't compromise our good intentions.

    I hope everyone else here feels the same way. This site would die if we suddenly were afraid to share our work, and that, my friends, would be tragic!

    Now, I've got to go and see if I can't do something constructive with the technique you showed me in you mini fur tutorial. Ha Ha

    Pleasant night Maya,

    Jack

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Camp Lejeune/Jacksonville, NC
    Posts
    127

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    Let it rest.

    We have a war going on and you twits are worried about somebody stealing your work?

    Get real, and get a life and support the war effort!

    I'd venture to say that most of the U.S. people on this forum did not spend one day “supporting” our great country, yet, you want this great country to “protect” your copyrights?

    God damned! Get real, chumps!

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif[/img]

    The Fontman
    "For those who fought for freedom...freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
    The Fontman
    "For those who fought for freedom...freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    St. Louis, Missouri USA
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    We have apparently found one of those jerks Ross and I were talking about on one of the other threads.

    I fought in Viet Nam, U.S. Navy 1966-1969, where did you do your tour?

    We are all just discussing a subject and everyone's had their own opinions and everyone's been really polite and considerate to everyone else until now.

    If you don't like this thread don't participate, keep you're foul mouth to yourself, and by all means, don't start telling me about fighting for your country. I'm willing to bet you're one of the ungrateful punks I fought for!

    My only post to you! I will no longer give you an audience.

    Old "Navy" Dog

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    I am a member of the "military" Fontman, and as such, with my husband, we ARE DOING OUR PART AND HAVE BEEN EVEN BEFORE OUR 23 YEARS IN SERVICE. We are discussing art-related topics here, and something which many of us have an interest in. That doesn't mean we don't care about other issues or that other things aren't a part of our lives. You make an AWFULLY BIG ASSUMPTION that we have no other thoughts or concerns...and to state that you think we do not support our country---what gives you that idea?!
    You don't have to read or reply to any of these posts or topics if you don't like them...but please DON'T BE RUDE AND ACCUSATORY TOWARDS US.
    ---AS The Crow Sees---
    Maya
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do, so throw off the bowlines, sail away from safe harbor, catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, Dream, Discover."
    -Mark Twain

 

 

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