food for your brain

[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I sense from your comments the idea that the "masses" using these "realistic landscape generation programs" might be failing to seperate their creations from reality. Unfortunately, there are no computer graphics programs that have mass appeal. The analogy to painting is a good one. Painters, like computer graphic artists, are certainly in the minority - very few people actually create the realistic landscapes that prompted this thread. I rather doubt any of them confuse what they are doing with reality. Sure some of them must feel like they are "God" as they create but I doubt a single such person thinks they _are_ God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, but we should define the word 'masses' first. 100.000 people are a mass in my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As has been stated, it is likely the predominate motivator is recreation. Creative processes are at play when you use Vue d'esprit, terragen, mojoworld, bryce, etc. To me that abundance of creative activity needs to be celebrated rather than cause concern. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a certain way - yes. But in reality life for all of us would be much more enjoyable if there would be more 'creativity', because then the envy and jaelousy would be abandoned!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The "masses", unfortunately, tend to seek their recreation in passive activities that involve little creative thought. I'm thinking of television watching. It has been said that the popularity of mass-media television is the non-demanding escapism it provides. It provides a highly accessible escape to other "realities". Watching it our imaginations can be transported to other places, times, universes, etc. Whilst imagination is sparked, creative thought processes are put on hold: So much so that many people don't know the thrill of being creative. I believe creativity is intrensic to all people but that it must be exercised and honed. Without nurturing and exercising - creativity withers. In our culture the wonderful creativity of childhood thinking, more and more, gives way to relatively dull adult thought processes. That scares me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. But it's the topmost goal of governments and industries to keep the citizens dumb, because as long as they are dumb they don't question a tax system (Marx and Engels).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It would excite me if there really was a mass-market computer program that encouraged creativity. Someone needs to create such a 'killer application' that can rekindle creativity in the "masses".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit the point - doesn't Microsoft use this method - promoting their software to unleash the creativity of gazillion people? **We** know it's bullshit, but actually millions are blinded by the words because they can't think.

1% of mankind does think
2% of manking can think if they want to
5% of mankind think they can think
the rest is dumb.

I don't remember the science project that revealed these data, but it's somewhere in my archives.

Aren't these data worth to be celebrated as well?

I am not sure at this point either, because a dumb mass is like a singularity: you never know which direction they will head to in the next second. So currently it's the best to feed them with daily soaps - then we **KNOW** where they are: in front of their TV set ;-}

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think the thing I really do like most about using a computer from time to time is for the communication---I really enjoy being able to share thoughts with people from all over who I probably would never meet otherwise...things like this discussion would be missed---we could have it with others, of course, but it wouldn't be the same discussion...I always feel I learn from it and enjoy it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The real revolution of the Internet was e-mail and communication in forums, not virtual shopping malls.

You could have this kind of discussions with others? Lucky you - if I would go to my neighbors it would end up in empty blurbs after the 10th beer and the 20th schnaps ;-}

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ask them to put on their shoes and get out of the house and enjoy the day/evening...."Nature, The Killer Ap For The Masses!" Sounds odd, but it's probably the best one around...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. But why put on their shoes? Don't you want them to experience the feel of soft sand versus dew soaked lawn? ;-} Or melted asphalt? (Don't laugh - we had this experience in Texas 23 years ago...but not barefoot of course)

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[Ross Macintosh]

subscribe to the idea that the vast majority of mankind are dumb. Awsome potential is in practically everyone; its just that our social and political structures "dumb" us down.

Creativity, innovation, and philosophical thinking are optional for the individual in the socio-political "world" we have constructed. While each person was born with such capabilities built-in, the world order we were born into doesn't demand much of us. For the complacent majority, that world is just 'is' - they never realize it is a created construct subject to evolve and change.

The idea of standing out in the natural world - feeling the sand between your toes, feeling the chill of the morning fog, watching the birds be birds - really offers the opportunity to lift your thoughts out of the "dumb" status quo that predominates too much of our thinking. I agree that the Vue d'esprit/Terragen/Bryce/Mogoworld's do not offer the same experience. No photo-real visualization ever will. What they can do is remind us of the sublime experiences we have had in the real world. For instance I had the life-altering experience of hiking down into the Grand Canyon. Playing with Terragen often reminds me of that experience. The Terragen experience is of course a pale imitation of a sublime natural experience - still, it helps our imaginations soar.

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[Crow Haven]

optional!!! Yes, by all means, jens, throw off the shoes, wiggle the toes and breathe in the fresh morning air.....it's another invigorating morning here full of bird song (they greet the day with such delight) and the window is open right here by the desk so I can glance up and see them too...
I want to get out there with them!!!

Ross, the experiences you had hiking must be great...no doubt you are reminded of them when you work on terragen pics...this can inspire you to seek out and enjoy more outdoor activity for all the things the images can't provide you with...that would be a good thing if it would affect others the same way.

I agree that TV is mind-numbing, it is better for kids and adults to do way less of it!!! It's a waste of precious time for the most part, in my opinion. It may even be depressing for some. It's healthy, I think, to get away from it---you'll even feel better!

Just a few thoughts.
Have a great weekend everyone!!!
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya

[jens g.r. benthien]

TV or not TV?

I don't have a TV, I don't watch TV. Only on rare occasions - 3 or 4 times a year. All I know about current TV content is from some elaborate newspapers. Maya, it's simple to get rid of the TV: pull the plug and cover it with sticky tape. You'll feel like an addicted smoker the first days, but then you will notice that you have more dreams, a sound sleep, no broken fingernails after watching a chainsawhalloweenmonstermassacre. And believe me - you can laugh out loud without soap operas ;-}

Your message sounded like poetry to me - it's sad that I can't write with your style because I don't have all the right words on hand. OK, I could torture my dictionary, but then it would take ages to post my messages.

Hey, aren't we lucky? I've lived in mega cities like NY, Singapore, HongKong etc - there we didn't have the slightest chance to walk without shoes - too dangerous because of broken glassbottles. And if you leave the city, you need shoes - boots! - because of snakes, dangerous spiders...

As nice as a jungle is - I am glad to live in a moderate climate zone where we don't have all these beasty animals ;-}. Sure, sometimes it's frustrating to never see the sun for weeks, but at least we have 4 seasons (though I could easily omit the winter season!).

Isn't life beautiful? I mean except for the annoying things like tax laws, parking tickets and the rest of necessities for 'civilization' and 'urban life'.

Ross,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Creativity, innovation, and philosophical thinking are optional for the individual in the socio-political "world" we have constructed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I definitely didn't construct it ;-}

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While each person was born with such capabilities built-in, the world order we were born into doesn't demand much of us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. It demands that we fight for our personal freedom, to break the chains they want to tie us down with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For the complacent majority, that world is just 'is' - they never realize it is a created construct subject to evolve and change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely true. I have to apologize if I can't remember the latin expression of the philosophical statement 'I think, so I do exist'. I only know it in German: Ich denke, also bin ich [Descartes]

Quid quid agas, agis prudentere et respice finem (Latin, meaning 'Whatever you do, do it carefully and consider the result or outcome')

I wish the 92% of the 'dumb' people would at least sign this statement.

And now the original - it just popped into my mind (my Latin is more than lousy!): Cogito ergo sum.

Unfortunately you can't reverse this statement into 'I am so I can think' :-}

And now the ultimate question for your homework:
Can plants think? Cave Carnem (Latin: watch the dog!)

I really enjoy this thread.

And yes, before I forget to reply to Mike:

Explain the color 'red' to a blind. Well, that an often used statement. IMHO we should focus on the 'normals' surrounding us before we start to discuss the exceptions. Of course blindness is part of the nature, but it's an accident in between the rather large bandwidth of 'normal' or 'healthy'.

However, as much as deaf people can experience music by feeling the vibrations you can describe colors to the blinds. It's a bit rude, but some scientist proved that it is possible. Did you ever experience a hard beat on your head, like being knocked out? Not as hard as to knock you out, but you will see colors because the impact on your head forces the brain to react - generating colors. They discovered that hits on different parts on the head generate different colors.

So it's more or less BANG - this is read, BANG, this is green etc. And you can stimulate the same process with tiny electrical shocks - much nicer method I'd say.

The brain **can** process colors, but the blind people don't have the 'network cable' from the eyes to the brain. Sorry again for the simple explanation, but my vocabulary is not trained for this area <sigh>

And now my parrots are screaming - our blue golden macaw is reaching the 130 dB limit, so I will quit here for today and wish you a great weekend.

jens

(please keep this thread going!)

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[Crow Haven]

regarding "pulling the plug" on the TV!!! I fully confess to having seen my share of weird shows---no "soap operas" though! I will admit to enjoying seeing some National Geographic shows about other parts of the world and the wildlife---places I haven't been to, and I have gained some appreciation and awareness, even if it is in this small way, of places and nature I now have a concern about and try to do some things that will help, rather than hinder the environment... Why? Because even though it's distant, like the jungles, etc..., I think it's all connected, and what happens elsewhere affects us in ways we may not have even thought of. I do read a lot, but I have enjoyed the filmakers efforts also to show us things about the world we wouldn't have imagined...

But I speak from the position of someone who has sight...your points about vision, colors, how we perceive these, and other input from the world, is fascinating! That topic alone sprouts off into so many directions!!! But again, I think it relates to this one about appreciation of nature---we could really do with using our senses more...pay attention to what we really see or hear or just feel. Whatever senses one has to use, make the most of them. When I think about all the things people like Helen Keller, who lacked eyesight and hearing from childhood, discovered and learned and accomplished, I'm just awestruck. These abilities are precious and wonderful to have, gifting us with so much...but there are wonderful abilities within the mind, as you've pointed out, that ought to be explored more. We don't use most of what we have and there is enormous potential within each of us.

What I want to say is, I'm for things which spark our imagination and creativity. It is different things for different people. For me, nature is the main inspiration...and other people's perspectives and ideas. When technology removes us too frequently from these interactions with the world I think we get "lost", we lose creativity. I like communications which inspire us to create in and experience our world. I like "things" which don't add to the trash or pollution of the planet. Here, jens, you help us with your designs!!! I enjoy seeing helpful, useful items which last---and there's no reason why they can't be made to have clean design and aesthetic appeal too.

On plants---I have a "green thumb"---I can only say it seems that they "sense" a great deal from our world...I think I've read also that trees manage to perhaps chemically communicate to each other about defending against insect attack...it's all endlessly fascinating and very amazing!!!

"Watch the dog!" Yes, and perhaps "watch the plants" too!!!

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya

[This message was edited by Crow Haven on May 25, 2002 at 16:17.]

[Mike Bailey]

I think that hitting someone in the head to make them see colors is absurd to say the least. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
My question was merely an example of sensing reality verses computer generated fantasy. Paintings, photographs and CG Images are visual stimuli lacking any tangible substance other than the material they are presented with. While I believe that the criminal mind could use such a medium as a deception. I also believe that the average person that has the capacity to operate such a piece of equipment is not so gullible as to be lacking the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy. As for time and space, I would probably be better off not telling you what I think. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Crow Haven]

any of us would want to participate in!!! However it occurred, though, it is interesting how our color perceptions are built in.

Simply looking at pictures, no matter how realistically done isn't a problem...but a virtual reality system of some sort where you can be hooked up to it and become totally oblivious to the world around you, and all input from it, is an interesting question.

It's like that Huey Lewis song, "I Want A New Drug". I think some people worry about that situation, especially those with children, and wish they could find ways to encourage others to try living without so many of the technological trappings we're surrounded by and some may even at times feel overwhelmed by.

It really is a great world---with and without our advances...we can do so much to help others with it...but it is a double-edged sword. I think jens feels concern about it. I think it's something people who are raising children can be concerned with now, and even more as time goes on...the big question is are we inspiring creativity or, as Ross discussed, encouraging too much mindless passive consumption which thwarts actual desires to create??? It's a good reminder to get out and "smell the roses" more...

I understand the concern. The only answer I have, for use in my own life, is trying to do what I can regarding those I interact with, how I try to encourage them to enjoy "nature" and appreciate what it offers...they either react positively to it and give it a go,(I have, for instance, inspired strangers to take a look through my telescope and "see" the moon and saturn, etc...and they have suddenly taken on new interest in what's out there and what's right here. We are surrounded by things we miss every day!) and this seems to be the case a great deal of the time, or it's just not to their taste. Ok--that's fine...

Just ideas, just questions, just musings going here. Great to get other's perceptions. (I still like the color red.)
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya

[Mike Bailey]

Maya,
The state of being concerned for the welfare of others can also be a 2 edged sword, Almost any activity if taken to the extreme can become grounds for an argument.

jens,

;<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wish the 92% of the 'dumb' people would at least sign this statement.

"Quid quid agas, agis prudentere et respice finem (Latin, meaning 'Whatever you do, do it carefully and consider the result or outcome')<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


When one or a few individuals publicly base a hypothetical argument on their concern for the masses, some elements of the argument could be viewed as a pretentious state of arrogance by those to which it references.


Be careful

[This message was edited by Mike Bailey on May 27, 2002 at 11:14.]

[Crow Haven]

daring to consider other viewpoints---those we find "agreeable" tend to be those we find agreement with. There is always risk you won't be agreed with, or that you didn't find just the right way to say and present your idea...but there is opportunity to learn other viewpoints, these can generate benefical ideas.

Something to think on---there has been few major technologies created that humanity didn't also find a way to use against itself...

Why not consider what new technology has in store for us beyond the hype? It can be useful.

Considering this for myself only, if it is arrogant to wonder how it may affect others, I want to know and understand more about what technology is bringing to my life, including computer use. Will it harm or hinder me or my creativity, or be of benefit? If I don't consider these things, how will I know what to choose or vote for, etc...? For just myself I wonder about balancing technology and nature...and I don't trust in big business to give the truth or have the best answers. It's interesting to hear what others think about it too, pro and con. I'm listening...

I understand the frustrations/concerns people speak of when they are bombarded with media reports on the state of things with technology's "detrimental effects". I am part of "the masses".

"You can choose the red pill or the blue pill..." (The Matrix)
be careful...
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya