Layer Inadequacy

[BONES]

Most of the comments in those various threads confirm my belief that a lot of users are trapped in a certain mindset that closes them to using Xara in the best, most efficient way. As I said, I think Xara already has an extra layer [pun intended] of control in this area - Object->Group->Layer - compared to Photoshop's Layer->Linked Layers/Adjustment Layer paradigm, which is why I question any need for even greater complexity. That said, if so many others see advantages, I want to understand what they are because maybe I am missing out on something worthwhile and could improve my workflow. But so far all the responses indicate to me that people are not getting any benefit from their layered workflow, so I'm just pressing on until I get a clearer idea.

But if your design gets real complicated, it would be nice to be able to make a hierarchical layer structure to organize it--especially if you are prototyping something for a client and you want to make one file that has several different design options.

I do very complex designs and I invariably find that putting things in layers makes it all more complex, not less. As for different design options, multi-page documents handle that very well.

As an overly simplistic example, say you want to do a landscape. The layers could be just 'Foreground' and 'Sky' if it was simple. But imagine that you wanted to try a couple different options for the sky--maybe a 'space' theme, and a regular clouds theme. In the clouds theme you wanted to try a couple different types of objects for effect. One option could have just birds floating about, another involves angels, and a third has aliens flying down in UFOs. Nested layers would be a great way to approach that if you wanted to keep all of your work for that project in one file. It would also allow you to play with different options more freely.

Sure, that is one example that makes sense but how often do you really do that? I often have literally dozens of iterations on a GUI theme but keeping them all in one document would make it so freakin' slow that it would be useless. As it is, once I reach a certain level Xara slows down considerably - it can take 5 seconds or more for a single pixel nudge of one object to redraw. If I had several layers, each with a similar number of objects, I can't imagine how slow it would get.

The above may not be the way you work, but I'd use the heck out of hierarchical layers, and probably in additional ways than imagined above. They would open up new workflow possibilities, and simplify some things I've muttered about in the past.

I still don't see it. There are other things that create limits long before I would get to a point of seeing an advantage in anything like this. I experiment endlessly but I find "Save As..." and Xara's seemingly endless undo to be my best friends when I am doing that. Moving something from one layer to another is no more or less work than copying/pasting from another document.

Example: Using a 3D application that can save geometry, lights, channels, shadows, cameras and etc. to separate layers is essential to post production work. Xara Xtreme cannot even begin to filter out the differences or the layers on this type of file.

Xara is not a post-production tool. For a start, it doesn't support HDRI, so why would you bother with it for compositing multi-pass renders? Horses for courses and only a loon would see any kind of opportunity for Xara in that scenario. I wouldn't even do that stuff in Photoshop, its just not made for it.

The same with applications that use special effects and layers in PSD. If one wants to turn on/off the effect or put a mask on something or perhaps apply an effect and put that in different layers, it becomes a cumbersome, if not impossible task in Xara Xtreme.

That's because they are entirely different applications. you may as well whine that you can't open an Excel spreadsheet in Notepad.

With all that said, it's why I keep Photoshop C3 Extended, Illustrator and After Effects handy, as I know Xara cannot do such layered work.

And that's why I use Autodesk Toxik.

OK, it seems that many people don't see the need for this in their work... fair enough. It's not compulsory to use the Layers gallery. Beef it up for those of us that want better capabilities, and the rest of you can leave it closed.

That's not to say we are not open to its advantages, I just don't understand what they could possibly be. I've always used layers up the wazoo in Photoshop, because there are huge benefits in doing so but even though CorelDraw has also had layers for 10 years or more, I've never seen a compelling reason to use them [same with Xara, of course]. It is a paradigm that doesn't have the same value in a structured art package and I think the combination of groups [which I see as functionally equivalent to linked layers in Photoshop] and current layering functionality [which I don't think has any equivalent in Photoshop] is more than adequate. BTW, in case its not obvious, I see each object in a drawing as the functional equivalent of a layer in Photoshop. In fact, Corel Photopaint, which I prefer to Photoshop, even calls them objects.

Actually what I was saying was that layers simplify my work and nested and/or grouped layers would help even more. I don't understand the resistance to this idea, it's not as if using groups or other layer functions would be compulsory.

Its not resistance, just a quest for understanding. Who knows, you might have some insight that I lack [if you don't ask, you never find out].