Dragon thread

[s.winders]

Ya know I am confused [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


What is a 3d control bone? is it a deformation bone like normal bones only a different type?


Thanks [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


Stu.

[Earl]

hehe, sorry Stu. "Bone" is usually referring to the bones in the 3d program that you use to animate a polygon mesh or model. But in the case of building a dragon model, there are actual 'bones' that show through the wings...as in my example that I posted. So the terms got confusing...both 'bones' referring to two different things. I started referring to 'control bones' when I meant the non-polygon model bones. You know, the type of bones that we use for manipulating the model. I'm going to eat a late lunch real quick, then I'll post an example to clarify the terms. Sorry for the confusion. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[s.winders]

Hey no problem Earl [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


Now I got ya control bones as in the ones that you model into your object for a more realistic effect using a pushing and pulling points around the joint method.So control bones are just too look pretty and deformation bones are for doing the business with right [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


I am having ever increasing problems with retaining information so if it gets to the point where I am not getting the most simple explanation just say so and we will leave it there [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


I made a new forearm and some veins for it,I just couldnt get a bump to map or protrude the way I wanted too,I suppose its because of the difference in geometry for all the pieces,I tried uv mapping as well but it just was not satisfactory,but then again I can be hideously fussy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] It looks quite good I tok your advice Earl and made some grooves and then I settled veins into the grooves themselves.


Cheers.

Stu.

[Earl]

Hi Stu,

Ok...I've tried discussing this same 'bone' vs' 'bone' issue with other 3d artists (some who are far more experienced than I), and even THEN we could not get the point across easily when dealing with different types of 'bones.' Even worse...I come to find out there ARE no official terms to differentiate between a bone that you animate with and a bone that is a part of your model. So don't feel bad at all Stu, so far everyone I've talked to about this has gotten just as confused.

I hope this helps. I'm posting an image which I hope will at least put us on proper speakign terms when it comes to these bone discussions. We're dealing with TWO types of bones. I'll try to make each type clearly defined below, but please, if you have a better way of differentiating between these two types, speak up! I'm quite open for suggestions! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

control bone - a more specific term for the commonly referred to tool that most 3d programs call 'bones'. This type of bone is not a physical polygon mesh. It will NOT show up when you render. Rather, it is a control handle, which allows you to deform your 3d model, setup joint restrictions, and setup forward/inverse kinematic chains. They can be connected together through a child/parent hierarchy.

model bone - a term used to describe a bone which is part of the physical polygon model. For instance, if one were trying to model a skeleton, the object would consist of many model bones. These bones are made of polygons and they will show up when you render.

Now, I hope that doesn't confuse the issue more...and please Stu, if it does, say so. If we can't discuss 3d at this level then it puts a real dampener on the forum. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] Ok...so lets hope this clears it up. In the image below, I show how LightWave highlights the "control bones" as yellow. Those control bones have little red, green, and blue arrows coming from their base for manipulation. They aren't physically there though, so they won't show up when rendering. They are only used to modify and manipulate the polygon mesh. On the image to the left (with the black background) you can see the rendered version, and how the control bones don't show up. The model bone DOES show up, because it's a part of the model, just like the eyes and teeth are a part of the dragon model. Let me know if this explanation is clear and efficient enough to use Stu...if so we can go ahead and use these two specific terms when we need to differentiate between different types of bones... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[s.winders]

Ok so model bones are the ones we create ourselves,not bones the program has as a tool etc,and we place our control bones within the model bones and the control bones dont render but allow our model bones to rotate and bend in the animation and look like they are real bones bending and extending,but its really the control bones doing that job and the control bones dont render in order to keep the realism of the object,is that right? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]


If I still dont have it right then a bone must have two ends a control end and a model end,and the control end does not render and the bone with two ends is a tool or setting within the program itself.


I know it must be one of the two [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ...hahahaaa [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


I am trying to build a hand at the moment and the way the author places the points has me wondering if he has more points than me to work with,but I am stumbling through [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] and then I have to work out how to modify a human hand and make it Dragon like.


Cheers.

Stu.

Ps dont eat your lunch quickly on account of me ok I can wait for a reply if you are busy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Earl]

Ok Stu, I think we finally got it! Your first impression of model bones and control bones was correct - or rather, it was what I was thinking of and trying to illustrate with my posted image.

Unfortunately my computer here at home has died. Motherboard, powersupply...plus perhaps a couple other things I don't know about. Anyhow, I'll only be able to post from work now...but come Thursday or Friday next week I should have new componants ready to be installed. At that point I'll be able to start modeling again and contribute more to this forum. I'll check back at this thread whenever I can and hope to continue to see some excellent progress on your dragon. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[s.winders]

Cheers.

I have finished the arm now I am onto the torso


Stu. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[s.winders]

Heres the basic Torso finally...groan [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]


This model is a hell of a challenge but also worth every swear word,tantrum,and headache that it is conjuring up on a daily basis [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


I still have a few areas to tidyup yet and add too but I am happy with the basic shape [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


Randy if you read this thread can you please tell me how I can apply two bump materials to the same object,or even better can I apply just a bump on its own as a material and then chuck a texture over that?..thanks mate.

Stu.

[Earl]

Excellent Stu! I like the approach you used, basing it off of human anatomy. You've definitely put a lot of details into it. I can even see the viens on the arm. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] So is the torso one whole object? Or are the arms seperate? I'm just curious as to your modeling process...

And you're absolutely right Stu...doing projects like this truly do add years to your skill and knowlege with a program. They can quickly turn a fairly new and novice user into an advanced modeler and texturer. It's good to see the dedication you have to the project...many people lose interest if they can't get the whole thing done in one afternoon.

[s.winders]

Hi Earl [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


I thought the next time I had something to post that it shoud be a bit more exciting then a Nana Miscouri concert [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ,as opposed to Stu posting an image of one single joint etc and making everyone go to sleep [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


I am using sparate pieces at the moment for two reasons,one being that if I have them separate then I can pose the model without joining everything and screwing up the boning,two being I can also used different mapping for the textures for a bit more realism,but I have joined quite a few pieces together.Yesterday I made a small piece of spine and ribcage using a bend deformer and booleans and I didnt notice that my file size had rocketed up so I got quite a shock to see it was now 50m so I assumed the culprits would be big pieces of model ie back muscles I made etc,but nope the little piece of spine was 37m...yaaaa 37m and the rib cage part 17m...I couldnt believe it so no wonder I was told there was not enought memory to render the image....I have 512m so that came as a bit of a shock,so those bits got binned really quickly [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


I am going to go back to the beginning again with texturing I like the idea of pulling off mesh and rendering side veiws front veiws etc and then painting them knowing just where everything should end up,but the process is still a little confusing to me as of yet [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


The modelling process I am also using is basically selecting lines of points in one veiw and shaping the polys that way,I do however want to get a lot better at welding pieces together and getting nice clean meshes,only I find nice clean meshes difficult with this subject.


I should have a back shot to post in just a short time.I modelled muscles and joined them...I kinda proud of that bit [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


Cheers.

Stu.