There's a difference between art without experience, bad art, and no art.

[Gary David Bouton]

Hi all, especially Randy--

Randy, I visited your site, and have no problem whatsoever with your artistic expression. So you're stuck with the title, pal...you *are* and artist. I can see in your work a tremendous amount of effort, and here's where I'd like to digress and open this message to our whole gathering.

*Please* do not say of something, "That's not Art." If you rummage through your art history books, you will notice that the Dadaist movement around the turn of the last century consisted of artists who were experimenting with trying to "kill art". They'd do these ridiculous Martian paintings, tie themselves up in a gallery for exhibition, but you know what?

Dadaists proved that Art cannot be killed, because in their actions, they were indeed creating art.

So I'd like to see more of, "this is lousy art, this is great art, this is ambitious art, this is excellent entry level art" in our posts, if we indeed feel compelled to dismiss a piece of art.

I'm am not blaming anyone here of doing this, but I think Randy should take it a little easier on himself and his own artistic evaluation.

What did Peter Quincy Taggart say in "Galaxy Quest"? "Never give up...never surrender!"

(If you've not seen the film, rent it. Tim Allen does a perfectly brilliant and cruel impression of Captain Kirk).

My Best,
Gary David Bouton
(here's my stab at doing glass)

Gary David Bouton
www.boutons.com
Gary@GaryWorld.com
Visit a really large gallery at www.GaryWorld.com!

[Gary David Bouton]

Hi all, especially Randy--

Randy, I visited your site, and have no problem whatsoever with your artistic expression. So you're stuck with the title, pal...you *are* and artist. I can see in your work a tremendous amount of effort, and here's where I'd like to digress and open this message to our whole gathering.

*Please* do not say of something, "That's not Art." If you rummage through your art history books, you will notice that the Dadaist movement around the turn of the last century consisted of artists who were experimenting with trying to "kill art". They'd do these ridiculous Martian paintings, tie themselves up in a gallery for exhibition, but you know what?

Dadaists proved that Art cannot be killed, because in their actions, they were indeed creating art.

So I'd like to see more of, "this is lousy art, this is great art, this is ambitious art, this is excellent entry level art" in our posts, if we indeed feel compelled to dismiss a piece of art.

I'm am not blaming anyone here of doing this, but I think Randy should take it a little easier on himself and his own artistic evaluation.

What did Peter Quincy Taggart say in "Galaxy Quest"? "Never give up...never surrender!"

(If you've not seen the film, rent it. Tim Allen does a perfectly brilliant and cruel impression of Captain Kirk).

My Best,
Gary David Bouton
(here's my stab at doing glass)

Gary David Bouton
www.boutons.com
Gary@GaryWorld.com
Visit a really large gallery at www.GaryWorld.com!

[jens g.r. benthien]

Gary,

what is art, what is design? Can we copy nature? Can we improve nature? Can we surpass nature? Is perception everything? Is vision perception?

Your thoughts inspired me to take a break again. I checked your web site and discovered the 'morning.jpg'. Was it you who modeled or designed or rendered it with Soft FX Pro? Maybe I'm totally off the track, because it's years ago when I used Soft FX...

I wish I had the time to discuss this topic and to share my thought & perceptions, and I wish I'd know all the words in your language...it'll take some time to browse the dictionary to write at least something about this topic.

Am I an artist or a designer? If an artist - a commercial artist or a fine artist? If a designer an illustrator or product developer? Is there good art or bad art? IMHO there is a difference. Your art is inspiring, with genuine ideas and visions. Browse the web and you'll discover bad art around the next corner very soon.

Art is a combination of dedication, ambition, natural knowledge, mentality, character, charisma, philosophy and more. Those who wake up, start web page design and call themselves artists or designers shouldn't be considered artists.

Just recently someone told me: if you can't hard code for the web you are not a designer or artist. I replied: sure, you are right, that's why every fireman must know how to assemble a B 747. And now let's start the propeller on your head, ok? and left.

It was my boss. Now I am back to the roots and on track. No more bad art just for the sake of some weird people, tight deadlines, bad taste and endless discussions about code, OS, etc. Just art and design. Though it's definitely not the path to become a millionaire, it's a great and rewarding way of life!

FIESTA !

jens

[Gary David Bouton]

Hi Jay--

You posed very deep and wonderful questions that deserve at least the best of my input.

Artists have pondered for centuries for the definition of Art. Weird, huh? Like your fireman there asking himself, "What is a fireman?" Okay, art and artists fall into a decidedly unique camp/profession. You got your specialists who only own one app and are really good at it, you got your charcoal people (Robert Stanley, author of the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Photoshop" is amazing with charcoal...physical charcoal...as he is with Photoshop on the other side of the glass...but he refuses to learn XARA...it, to him, is too long a path to a modality of expression he is not satisfied with.

Soooo...if you can't define Art (please accept this as a maxim; you'll lose less hair this way), then how can we define an artist? There are so many avenues, and as Alber Einstein once said (oddly, few people know him as a philosopher), man's need for self-expression is sometimes greater than the need for shelter or food.

Let's face it...everyone on earth wants to express themselves. Because I know of my own experience better than someone else's, here's the way I think it works:
1.)You are impressed by some sort of beauty in your surroundings. There's beauty in every harmonious situation. When things are out of balance, you wind up with a heavy metal group.

2.)Your mind is conditioned to react and respond to this beauty. You cannot help it...too many years of responding to worldy impressions even by the time you're old enough to hold a crayon.

3.)Your mind filters what you are impressed by, and adds a unique...you might even say cosmic...slant on what you've been impressed with.

4.)Then your conciousness slips in and helps bring to this world a combination of your impressions and your concious feelings.

As far as reality and 3D goes, I think we are all striving to be "Super-Photographers", where we can whip out a few primitives, light them, and add expression and feeling through conventional aspects of art (composition, color, lighting, blah, blah)...without leaving your PC. Does modeling rival photography? I'd say no. No more than puppetry rivals the ballet. These are the avenues I'm talking about. No competition for mode of expression...ya just express your heart out, and it doesn't matter what country, what operating system, or what app you use. I think we all like 3D due to the "instant gratification factor". At its best, it can be inspiring. At its worst, it's monsters weilding axes, and women with breasts that defy proportion.

But then again, this is true of any medium. My point was that there is good art and there is bad art....but there's no such thing as, "That's not art." I hear that way too often when people see a bad movie. If you cannot kill art, as I mentioned in my last message about Dadaism, then you cannot cast a work...regardless of how pathetic it is...from the body of Art.

My Best,
Gary David Bouton

Gary David Bouton
www.boutons.com
Gary@GaryWorld.com
Visit a really large gallery at www.GaryWorld.com!

[randyrives]

Gary,

Thank you for the encouraging words and visiting my site. I have a hard time seeing what I do, compared to what I see others do, and still call my work art.

But I do see your point. As long as we try and enjoy then what we produce is art. It may not be viewed as good, but it is art. (or maybe some do like it, tis the nature of art)

Thanks,
Randy

[Earl]

Well, I read everyone's posts, and I just wanted to add my own little note to this discussion.

I would have to agree for the most part with Gary's comments - especially regarding the definition of art.

And that's just it - what is and what is not art cannot be defined, as it lies completely on one's personal view of the proposed 'art'. To some, the proposed piece could be utterly repulsing, to others, it could bring tears to their eyes. Art has no boundaries, and it never will.

What gets me the most, is when someone has the impudence of declaring someone's work 'bad' art, or cheap, wrong, unworthy, and any other degrading adjective. Saying that someone's art is 'bad' is not only self-centered and cruel, but it accomplish's nothing positive. When someone declares someone's art as 'bad', they're also declaring themself the authority on art - which is just a conceited form of self-promotion. I hold no respect for these such people.

Instead of trying to classify art as 'good', or 'bad', it would be much more constructive to give specific comments on parts of the work that you like, do not like, or parts that you would change, etc. Giving suggestions, telling them how it makes you feel, etc. Trying to promote one's self by degrading another just isn't welcome (at least I should hope not).

Ok...I think I'm done. =)

[Mark (theKeeper)]

... because thankfully, for my tired wretched ol' digits, Earl has stated pretty much exactly what i also feel on this subject.

My digits thank thee Earl! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

And just to icing that cake, i'd like to challenge anyone to logically disprove the age-ol' phrase: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".