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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Default Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Hello everyone,

    I'm working with Xara Designer Pro X since many years now and
    frequently (3-5 times per year) build websites with it, but also and mainly use
    it for flyers and presentation documents. I even had a 'Corel-Xara' license
    when Corel sold it. I have to say I'm a great fan of Xara and would like to see it
    climb the 'Olympus' of vector graphic software products finally. It does deserve it.

    I have to state, that Websites are not my 'bread and butter' job.
    I'm a 3d-Graphic & CAD Freelancer mainly.

    Over the years I however successfully built some quite fat sites and could
    acquire some basic skills concerning website-building.

    Here eventually comes my Point/Question:

    When viewing their new website for the first time, when it had gone online,
    many of my customers asked me, why the fonts would not be selectable
    and oftentimes would look blurry.

    I used to tell them, that this was a technical thing, due to Xara's internal data management
    and since everything else worked out well, they bought it. It was no lie.
    I did not realize, that this was avoidable. But I was of course wondering too.

    Some time ago I found out though, that 'soft groups' work differently concerning that effect.

    If I i.e. group a rectangle and a text-element/word with the ordinary 'group'-command and then
    preview it via the website preview, it is obvious, that the text-element and also the rectangle
    are being displayed as a pixel-object.

    If on the other hand I use the 'soft-group'-command to group the same two elements,
    one can clearly see a crisp font and the rectangle has no pixalation as well, as one would exspect it.
    Also the font is selectable, while this is not possible in the former case.

    I would like to know, if anyone out there can explain to me, what the reason for this
    'strange behaviour' is. I guess there should be a good reason for this?

    Amazingly I can not find any clue in the help-section on grouping/soft-grouping concerning this topic.

    I just can't believe, that I'm the only Xara-User, who extensively and over many years used
    the 'grouping'-command to keep WIP-sites tidy and in order.
    Since I never stumbled upon any tutorial on this and never found any warning-sentence
    in the help-section, I simply did'nt even realize (up to now), that 'ordinary' grouping should
    be avoided, in order to keep fonts selectable and crisp vector graphics instead of pixalated objects.

    Any hint, as to why this pixelation-thing/behaviour has been introduced in the first place, while
    on the other hand it seems possible to avoid it when using 'soft-grouping'*
    instead of 'simple-grouping' would be much appreciated.
    *I don't remember, when 'soft-grouping' was first introduced, but there was no mentioning,
    that this was a means to avoid pixelation when grouping elements with the existing 'group command'"

    I strongly appologize for not being able to come to my point in only 2-3 sentences :/

    BR, Claude

    ... simply curious, since I found out about it ...

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Placitas, New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    I'm exhausted.

    When you soft group text with something, a rectangle as you state, the text exports as text and not as a bitmap. So you can select the text, and if desired copy and past it.

    See this example: http://gwpriester.xara.hosting/group/

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    SW England
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    Info Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by define View Post
    I would like to know, if anyone out there can explain to me, what the reason for this
    'strange behaviour' is. I guess there should be a good reason for this?
    Claude, sorry you have fallen foul of this(XDPXv17 PDF Help Manual):
    Text inside groups for websites
    When a document is exported as a website, all groups get exported as images. So any text inside groups can’t be selected and copied as text by a visitor to your site.


    For graphical buttons, headings, logos etc. this is usually desirable as the text just forms part of the graphic. But you may have more substantial pieces of text inside groups which you want to remain as text in your exported web page. To arrange this, all you need to do is apply the special name “HTMLText” to your text object. The easiest way to do this is as follows:
    1. Go into the TEXT TOOL and click on your text to insert the text cursor.
    2. Press escape so that the whole text object becomes selected.
    3. Open the Name dialog ("UTILITIES" > "NAMES...").
    4. Either select the “HTMLTEXT” name from the “APPLY NAME” dropdown list if you’ve already used it in the current document, or type in the name “HTMLText”. Then click “ADD” to add the name.
    Now, when you export your website, your text will remain as text and the rest of the group will be converted to an image. All the text panels provided in the ONLINE CONTENT CATALOG already have this name applied to the text objects inside them, so the text on the panels will export as text.


    Browsers can’t render rotated text, so you can’t use this name to force rotated text to be exported as text. The name is ignored in this case.
    In v17, you can additional group a collection of objects, including text and using Web Properties > Image > Group Images force you r Group to publish as separate text and other objects.

    Note, a Group forces all objects so grouped into one single layer.
    This is useless for rollover buttons and NavBars.

    Soft-grouped objects are their own person but hang around together. Useful for roaming the streets but when it's late they can all go home to their own lair (layer - pun!).

    Succinctly, https://www.talkgraphics.com/showthr...721#post597721.

    Acorn
    Acorn - installed Xara software: Cloud+/Pro+ and most others back through time (to CC's Artworks). Contact for technical remediation/consultancy for your web designs.
    When we provide assistance, your responses are valuable as they benefit the community. TG Nuggets you might like. Report faults: Xara Cloud+/Pro+/Magix Legacy; Xara KB & Chat

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    When text exports as a bitmap, especially small text, Xara anti-aliases the text to soften the grid of dots. This makes the text appear smoother on the screen, but it is not as sharp and crisp and editable text. In this example, the text from the previous image has been enlarged 300% and Xara's anti-aliasing turned off.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	anti-aliased text.png 
Views:	60 
Size:	30.1 KB 
ID:	127621  

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    13

    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Dear Gary,

    thank you very much für all your good work around xara in the first place. Your tipps and tricks helped me out many times over the years as well.

    I rather did'nt wont to 'exhaust' you with my text and request .

    I was indeed only wondering, why anyone at xara would have introduced a grouping-command, that changes any text-elements into an image.
    While this absolutely comes in very handy concerning pure graphical work, I strongly consider this an effect worth a mention* in the help section, when it comes to web-graphic matters. I really tried to get behind this quite some times by taking my time and digging into the help section on this, but could not find anything and then lost track.

    *Please - if there is a passage in the help-section, that has something on this topic, let me know. May well be, that my search has been too poorly, as I'm from Germany and thus no native speaker, but ... I teached/teach a lot of customers to use Xara (especially for web-sites) and hence I feel, that I did not do a decent job on them. I would appreciate it very much, if I could at least show them the respective passage in the help-section.

    Only yesterday I was talking to one of them and when we came to this point
    (as I had freshly learned some news in Talkgraphics ), she told me, that
    a site she had made a year ago, had been ridiculed by a another professional web-designer, as all text on that side was unselectable and pixelated. He even questioned, whether the text was still available for the search-engines. Kind of embarrassing situation, for her, her customer and last not least me as well. Thankfully she took it easy and (... we had'nt talked for some time) she had found out about the 'soft-grouping' capabilities by herself by trial and error, after that embarrassing meeting took place.
    (Sadly she did not call me on that immediately ;/ )

    Anyway - Xara designer Pro X is my favourite vector graphics application and as I wrote before, I think it is sadly much underestmated in the graphics world.

    Again an exhausting amount of text to digest ... but the quest is over
    and I learned some things again. So no more Text-Monsters to come.

    My best Regards and thanks again,

    Claude

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    I can but wonder.

    Acorn
    Acorn - installed Xara software: Cloud+/Pro+ and most others back through time (to CC's Artworks). Contact for technical remediation/consultancy for your web designs.
    When we provide assistance, your responses are valuable as they benefit the community. TG Nuggets you might like. Report faults: Xara Cloud+/Pro+/Magix Legacy; Xara KB & Chat

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Dear ACORN,

    I only now (after reading and answering Gary's comment) carefully read your reply to my request and voila! you did the trick
    and helped with everything I wanted to learn about this matter and even provided the hint to where to find it in the help-section.

    I swear I tried every possible combination of search-terms and did not get any clarifying result on this matter.

    Reading your reply after Gary's would have saved Gary from the (again) 'exhausting' reply on my 'exhausting' request
    I frankly admit, a glas or two of white wine may have influenced the 'story' 'at length'

    So - like to Gary - my big Thanks for your work, tipps and tricks for Xara
    and I liked your '(layer/lair - pun!) ... a very worthy piece of information to be considered too.
    (the layer thing, when employing 'soft-groups')

    Claude

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Gary, may be you can save anyone else from having to read my lengthy replies and simply delete them - please Thx in advance Claude

  9. #9
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    Info Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Claude, thank you for replying.

    In summary, to ensure text appears as text:
    1. Avoid grouping it.
    2. If grouped, add the special Name, HTMLText, to the Group.
    3. If v17+ and grouped, consider the use of Web Properties > Image > Group Images.
    4. If objects are across different layers, use Soft-group.
    5. Prefer Soft-group over Group.
    6. Use Text Inside as you get text without adding any other settings.
    7. Ditto for Smart tables.

    I am sure others can contribute to this list.

    Some may find this of use:
    0x47 G Constrain Alternative Ctrl+Alt+G RA(Enter) ApplySoftGroup Key Command Place the selection into a Soft Group. Soft Groups cannot overlap, they are joined together into one. Any prior grouping detail is lost.
    0x47 G Constrain Ctrl+G RG Group Arrange Menu Places the selected Object(s) inside a Group wrapper. This can only be done one time.
    0x47 G Adjust Constrain Shift+Ctrl+G RG Group Arrange Menu Places the selected Object(s) inside a Group wrapper. This can only be done one time.
    0x55 U Constrain Alternative Ctrl+Alt+U RR RemoveSoftGroup Key Command Puts all Object(s) and Group(s) back to their indivual shapes.
    0x55 U Constrain Ctrl+U RU Ungroup Key Command Ungroups the selected Objects. Note, a Group action places all Objects into the current Layer, an Ungroup cannot restore this.

    Acorn
    Acorn - installed Xara software: Cloud+/Pro+ and most others back through time (to CC's Artworks). Contact for technical remediation/consultancy for your web designs.
    When we provide assistance, your responses are valuable as they benefit the community. TG Nuggets you might like. Report faults: Xara Cloud+/Pro+/Magix Legacy; Xara KB & Chat

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Location
    Placitas, New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: Strange grouping behaviour in Xara - IMHO

    Claude, I was stressed. We're going through a tough time here.

 

 

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