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  1. #101
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    Dec 2014
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    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    Quote Originally Posted by maksimon View Post
    I understand what you're saying but unfortunately there is no possibility to describe in detail the error in your reasoning. These things cannot be compared. If I could speak fluently in English, I have proved you that you are wrong trying to compare these things. Maybe someone else will explain to you ...
    I don't understand what you don't understand about this comparison. I go into detail about why I make the comparison and why expecting 'upgrades' enables terrible business practices in which we as consumers are left with buggy software, always being promised a fix that brings with it new problems and in turn new fixes, rinse and repeat. If your car has a problem in it's design, it either gets repaired (patched) or replaced (recall). The end. These things don't introduce new problems to where you're constantly taking your car back in every other week for a 'bug fix'. Wouldn't you be afraid to drive it if this were the case?

    Weak analogy aside, my statements beyond this still stand. You can leave the analogy out and tackle/defend my arguments against always updating things that have no business being shipped needing updates at all.

    I do mention that people are conditioned to expect constantly updating software for features that aren't useful or asked for or constantly fixing bugs that the last bug fix update fixed. Again, I point to classic software that came with paper manuals you can put on a shelf, no way to connect online to 'update itself' and usually didn't need to because it was programmed right the first time and there was a clear goal and feature list that was adhered to. You might have heard of this thing called a 'design document'. Now we have what is called a 'rolling schedule'...it's a profit plan not a method of creating a finished product.

    Cloud-anything is nothing more than a business, in my opinion, saying 'F-- you, we're not going to try anymore to finish anything or have a clear plan. We're just going to update for the sake of updating and interrupt you in unexpected ways along the way, maybe every month, maybe every other month, but we'll do it and you'll pay us for it.' Nope, I'm not paying for it, and I urge people to reconsider this marketing tactic as that is all it is. The user does not benefit in this scheme. The software should be made with 400 bug fixes when it is introduced, not WHILE we are using it, we shouldn't even be aware there were any bugs to begin with.
    See my some of artwork and hear some of my music at www.kniteforcerevolution.com
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  2. #102
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    UK
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    21,284

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    Weak analogy aside, my statements beyond this still stand. You can leave the analogy out and tackle/defend my arguments against always updating things that have no business being shipped needing updates at all.....

    ...... The software should be made with 400 bug fixes when it is introduced, not WHILE we are using it, we shouldn't even be aware there were any bugs to begin with.
    the thing about bugs is, by definition, you don't know they are there until they crop up.. how long are you going to wait checking for things that might not be there? you will never ever know if you have caught them all, too many variables

    this is a basic flaw in your analogy - the variables involved in car usage are relatively low - the variables involved in computer usage are by comaprision enormous... a car is designed to do a specific job/job_set - even just one computer program may be designed to cope with a multitude of tasks; the computer itself is a vast array of software platforming with all the conflicts, proritisations, security issues, etc that entails... and it all has to hang together... you would be better comparing such to a complete transportation system than to a single car.. still not a good analogy, but better...

    and because the variables are enormous it is a given that not everything will work as it should under all possible circumstances - frankly it is pretty amazing that it works as well as it does given the complexity

    this is no excuse for rogue companies pushing out half-baked product enhancement, or tying in users with an unfair update regime ... but modern systems are evolving all the time.. you have to understand this and it's implications re getting everything to work properly with everything else...
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...
    IP

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    ...Granada province, Andalucia, Spain
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    5,302

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    I do not think we should quibble too much about the analogy, it may or may not be weak, but it is a side-issue. The basic thrust of the argument is sound; the cloud is intrusive, but can be a useful tool to deliver fixes not caught in the initial release, let us accept that programmers are just as human as the rest of us...unforseen errors do crop up and it is a useful method of delivering corrections to the customer. However, (you knew there would be an "however"!) as a means of avoiding costs at the expense of delivering a CD or DVD (or five), the customer loses out when a company introduces a scheme (scam) to keep people in the loop by adopting a subscription format that is legally dubious and probably impossible for those not trained in law to understand. This has caused the hackles to rise against MagiXara and Adobe. It is morally indefensible to treat customers this way and should be outlawed (ie; made illegal by Government).

    If one looks at the alternative, which Corel and Serif have adopted then things look rather better for the customer. If one accepts that Corel charge rather more than is acceptable for most folk, at least one can look elsewhere in the free market system and choose Serif's Affinity Designer and/or Photo. No pressure involved. The pricing is fair, the product is of a marvellous quality. They also have a reliable roadmap informing the customer what they can additionally expect during the lifetime of the version number they have purchased. All set out with no fuss, bother or anguish for the customer - no strings attached no threats to update, upgrade or whatever terminology they use to dupe unwitting customers to buy a pig in a poke *

    MaxiXara have opened a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. At least, one assumes that the current débâcle is one that was initially unforseen, but rather than lose face and reverting to the previous method, they are ploughing on regardless, merrily shedding loyal users as they go without a care in the world.

    Bob.

    *I have no affiliation with Serif, I'm just a satisfied customer, pleased that there is still a company in the graphics world that has integrity.
    ** Detailed "Create A Spinning Logo Tutorial" is available in .pdf format for download at this link **
    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx.
    IP

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    UK
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    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    Bob - If the basic thrust of hseiken's argument is 'updates are unnecesary' that is total pie in the sky - there will always be program updates in a dynamic system - one reason why I was hoping Kate would confirm that bug fixes issued during a licence period are avaiable on reinstall - but my last posts in this thread, on that topic at beginning of this month, have gone unanswered

    As I have said elsewhere, if MagixXara which to go in a particular direction, that is up to them and they will no doubt take the consequences; at most I would call the current update model unfair; and unlikely to give competitive advantage over time.

    I like Affinity; it will not do all Xara does, but it does things xara does not, like mesh warp that I need and which Xara was asked for a decade ago or more... I can use xdpx12 for what it does for the forseeable future and lose no sleep over it...
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...
    IP

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    San Diego
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    362

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLwsKtZDwFs

    I think this opinion expressed in this video about games is relevant to the discussion.

    As for updates are unnecessary, it's not to say new versions cannot come out, it's that updates aren't updates, they're publicly beta testing stuff on the public and then if you happen to buy that version on a disc, and lose access to the bug fix 'updates' which is what I'm arguing should be unnecessary, then you're screwed. You bought buggy software. Xara/Magix goes out of business, you have worthless software.
    See my some of artwork and hear some of my music at www.kniteforcerevolution.com
    IP

  6. #106
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    Feb 2007
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    UK
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    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    bug fixes or no bug fixes, beta-testing or no beta-testing, if magix/xara go out of business and you cannot re-activate your software online on restore, you are screwed anyway... unless you can resort to sandboxing a trial version, which would only be a desperate last resort

    must confess I haven't watched the video... all I would say is that right back, way before the 365 update model, new versions came out with bugs in them... that is not just limited to 'updates'.. that is not just limited to xara

    I do not like the update model; I do not like not getting bug fixes; but it was always that way if you did not buy the latest version

    I can use version 12 for all I need; I can use verion 11, it only lacks a couple of conveniencies from my point of view, I would like the bug fixes, but the lack of them is more a point of principle to me than practicality, maybe I am lucky

    and as I said before - you cannot expect to iron out all bugs for sure before release - which is not to say some companies are not more efficient than others
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...
    IP

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    9

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    I'm a noob compared to you all and new here too, but honestly, I went to Xara because I just need tools that work the way I do.

    Xara works for me, so does Affinity Designer. I have Illustrator CS6 and it's fine -- but as far as I'm concerned, it's the end of life of Adobe unless I want to be on the hook for eternity and rent forever. That just doesn't jive with me.

    I thought Xara was upfront about its pricing and I bought it on sale at $200 last year. It has definitely given me more than $200 worth of use. I don't feel bad about upgrading via Steam for $99 for another year. That said, if I don't see improvements to the toolset, I'm not going to upgrade again until I see them.

    What I don't need is that tool to magically lose its capabilities at the end of a year's time. I think that's what really bothers a lot of people (including me) with losing the updates we paid for over the course of the year. Steam should counteract that because it packages applications differently. And Steam retains the licensure if Xara is dropped by the wayside.
    IP

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    71

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    I agree it was a bad move to go to cloud based programs. I don't want to use someone else's computer 1,000s of miles away when mine works just fine.
    IP

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada.
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    4,619

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    Quote Originally Posted by JJJayhawk View Post
    ... What I don't need is that tool to magically lose its capabilities at the end of a year's time ...
    Just to make it clear, as far as I'm aware, you won't lose anything (except access to the ONLINE CATALOGUE, and you can download that prior to the expiry) at the end of the year, Xara will remain as it was, the day your subscription expires UNLESS you have to reinstall. If you need to reinstall, what you'll get is the program as it was when you bought it ... without updates.
    Keith
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    There are 10 types of people in this world .... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
    IP

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Harwich, Essex, England
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    21,895

    Default Re: xara.com getting even further from the Xara DEsigner products?

    Or bug fixes.
    Egg

    Intel i7 - 4790K Quad Core + 16 GB Ram + NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1660 Graphics Card + MSI Optix Mag321 Curv monitor
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