The "ideal" Photoshop system ?!

[sinatra_y2k]

Hey gang,

I've been working with various versions of Photoshop over the years at school, and now I'm looking to buy a new computer system and seriously start designing. I've read the system requirements for 5.5, but I was wondering if anybody had any advice about building/configuring a system that will really fly with Photoshop.

I'm not a hardware guy at ALL, so what should I be looking for.. lots of RAM for sure, but what about MHZ, and processors and chipsets (its all latin to me). I'm probably going to lay most of my available credit on this system - so I want it to be what I need, and I'd like it not to be obsolete in ten minutes.

Any advice would be much appreciated... Thanks!

Mike sinatra_y2k@hotmail.com

[sinatra_y2k]

Hey gang,

I've been working with various versions of Photoshop over the years at school, and now I'm looking to buy a new computer system and seriously start designing. I've read the system requirements for 5.5, but I was wondering if anybody had any advice about building/configuring a system that will really fly with Photoshop.

I'm not a hardware guy at ALL, so what should I be looking for.. lots of RAM for sure, but what about MHZ, and processors and chipsets (its all latin to me). I'm probably going to lay most of my available credit on this system - so I want it to be what I need, and I'd like it not to be obsolete in ten minutes.

Any advice would be much appreciated... Thanks!

Mike sinatra_y2k@hotmail.com

[Peter Clifton]

Mike

Well I know it's a mine field but I'll stick my neck out [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

First I hope we are talking 'PC' / Windows as I know nothing about Macs

You do not want to skimp on the monitor or the graphics card.

Recommend a monitor with a Diamondtron naturally flat tube capable of handling reasonably high vertical refresh rates (85Hz) at 1024 x 768 or above.

For the graphics card, if you are working exlusively with Photoshop and and other 2D based programs such as layout packages then the Matrox G400 Dual Head is really very good. Excellent DACs for stable - high refresh output.

It's 3D is good but is eclipsed by other cards, if you need OpenGL support (a 3D application interface) then I can't really recommend it at this stage.

The rest of the system is much harder to recommend

For the disk drive subsystem you will save money and only loose a bit on performance if you go with the standard inbuilt UDMA 66 or 100 IDE variants with 7200 rpm disk drives attached.

If you are running in any kind of a multi-tasking / processor environment such as Windows 2000 then a SCSI sub-system may be a wiser choice.

As for Processor type, RAM and motherboard, this is really tough at the moment.

If you go with an AMD Athlon type processor you only have a choice of VIA chipset motherboards (there are some other manufacturers chipsets about to be released) that support all the features I've mentioned. There is nothing at all wrong with AMD processors, however the VIA chipsets are not as good at shifiting data around the PCI / AGP and memory buses as the Intel chipsets. (AGP is the slot / BUS that the graphics card uses)

As for a Intel Pentium / Chipset based PC. Well it's been a very bad year.

Currently the 820 chip set has been pulled, the 840 chipset is too expensive as you should partner this with the 'VERY' expensive RAMBUS memory.

You can either go with a BX based motherboard and an old Slot 1 - Pentium III 100mhz frontside bus processor and RAM. But you will only get AGP x 2 and UDMA 33 disk drive performance (though to be honest if working in 2D you will be pushed to notice the difference with the following specs)

Or you can go with the new 815E Solano based chipset and Pentium III FCPGA - 133 mhz frontside bus FCPGA processor and 133 mhz RAM, this chipset also supports AGP x 4 and UDMA 100 disk drive interface.

Note I haven't covered other possibilites with using Slocket Adaptors and Overclocking as I could be here all night [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Hope this information is useful

Peter

[sinatra_y2k]

Thanks Peter..

That's a lot of information to absorb, particularly since my grounding in hardware is shaky to say the least.

Generalizing a little ... (no offense to your detailed reply, of course) ... Will most Pentium III systems give me enough gas for Photoshop, assuming I load up on RAM (like ... 128mb+), or do I really need to do my homework and read up on chipset specifics. Just looking through the paper here (Toronto) there seem to be loads of PIII systems in my price range with reasonable Mhz (500 +). But that isn't the whole story I guess...

I gather from your message that I could buy a PIII system with an inferior chipset and really limit the performance - are we splitting hairs here, or are we talking about serious problems?

Here is a question I probably should have asked first: anybody know a resource on the web that helps to explain motherboards and chipsets and all of this stuff "for idiots"?

<sigh> I certainly feel like one now...

thanks again...

Mike

[Peter Clifton]

Mike

First, you really need to decide if your going for an 'off the shelf' system or a 'build it your self' system.

Building it yourself will definitely cost more, but you will be able to tailor it to your exact requirements, using the best of components.

Buying an 'off the shelf system' will usually involve some compromises.


Building it yourself
About all this interface stuff UDMA 33 / 66 /100 vs SCSI, AGPx4 AGPx2, 100mHz frontside bus V 133 mHz frontside bus.

In basic 2D work like Photoshop there is unlikely to be any visible or externally tangible difference assuming you use a good quality graphics card and fast hard disk (SCSI or IDE).

As for the difference in performance between VIA and Intel motherboard chipsets, on a fully optimised system I would hope the difference is between 3 and 5 percent in favour of Intel, all other things being equal.

A good place to start looking for benchmark results and most other hardware related info is

Tom's Hardware

As for the oomph of a system. Definitely get as much RAM as you can afford first and then go for the fastest processor you can get.

Now I don't actually use Photoshop but all the information I've supplied so far is IMHO valid for any type of 2D image editing computer. The following bit of information is based on my experiences with Corel Photopaint, but I reckon in terms of usage of system resources the packages are similar.

The size of the image file you generally work with will determine how much RAM you need, if you regularly work with 20MB plus images involving layers and such then I reckon 256MB of RAM or more would be appropriate. The less time your computer spends accessing the hard disk the faster your job will get done. If you work with smaller images then 128MB should be adequate.

The faster processor will come into it's own with the filters, if you do a lot of filter effects work then a faster processor will be beneficial.

I'm going out on a limb here but a 500 mHz Pentium III or Athlon type processor should be enough but it really depends on the type of work you intend to do.

Buying Off the Shelf systems
These days the king of graphics cards supplied with good off the shelf computers is based on the NVidia GEFORCE 256 processor (or GEFORCE2 256). It's 3D performance in the price range is unsurpassed, it's 2D is no slouch either. As for 2D image quality and speed compared to Matrox, I guess that is really subjective, however general opinion (read newsgroup / forum posts) probably has the Matrox G400 series still out in front.

I feel the monitor is still very important. With an off the shelf system this is usually the component that gets short changed to get all the other specifications up to snuff. Some people are not bothered by this, but if possible I urge you to look at a good quality Diamondtron (or Trinitron equivalent) screen compared to a 'bundled' monitor.

I don't know what makes of monitor are on sale in Toronto but in the UK the Diamondtron iiyama series are getting good reviews in the computer press.

Hope the information is useful.

Peter

PS If it's any help this is what I just built 3 Weeks ago with my own money and I'm very happy with it.

Motherboard - ASUS CUSL2 (815E Solano chipset)
RAM - 256 MB of PC133 CAS2 (2 x 128)
Harddisks - IBM Deskstar 75GXP (15GB System Drive 30 GB data drive)
Processor - PentiumIII 667EB Coppermine processor
Monitor - iiyama Diamontron 410 PRO
Case - Midi Tower with 300W Power Supply

I'm actually using the onboard video (present on all 815E Solano motherboards) at the moment, its 2D quality and speed is actually OK, but forget about 3D. I'm planning to put a Matrox card in it when finances allow as it is part of a Video editing system which is the next 'pet' project I want to get into.

[This message was edited by Peter Clifton on August 11, 2000 at 11:33 AM.]

[gwpriester]

I have to admit that I do not do a lot of heavy duty work in Photoshop, so maybe I am not the best person to ask. However,

I have a Dell Pentium II 450 with 128 MB RAM and a STB nVIDIA TNT video card with 16 MB video RAM, and I get around in Photoshop 5.5 quite well.

I think more RAM is always a good idea. I noticed that COSTCO has 128 MB RAM modules for about $1.00 a MB. I'm not sure how fast the RAM is but the price is a real eye opener.

I have always been a Mac hater, mostly because Macs have always been over prices and I cannot stand the holier than thou attitude a lot of Mac users seem to have.

That said, the new G4 Cube blows me away. No fan so the thing is soundless. The cube is not only extremely handsome, it's very petit as well.

The base price for a decent unit (only 64 MB of RAM but you can add that) is $1700. A standard 17" matching monitor is around $400. The sides of the monitor like the cube are transparent.

A flat 15" LCD screen is about $800 and the 22" Cinema screen is $3999.

I am sorely tempted.

Gar [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

Be It Every So Humble...

[athena]

Mike,

If you're planning on diving into debt anyway, I would suggest these things.

1. <LI>Buy at least a Wacom Grapphire (around $100 (US) (this would be those drawing tablets we use instead of or in addition to a mouse. Most off the shelf PC systems come with a mouse.) A tablet will save your hands and wrists alot of pain (ie carpal tunnel syndrome or repretitive stress injury. remember, if you can't work because you injured yourself with a mouse, how are you going to pay for this computer?)
   <ul>
   <LI>
   at Best a refurbished Wacom Intuos ought to soften the blow on the budget. About 6 months before the intuos came out, I bought a 12x12 refurbished Wacom tablet -- it has been one of the best purchases in my computer career
   
   <LI>I bought the refurbished tablet at Publisher's Toolbox 1-800-390-0461 International and Canadian Orders welcome www.pubtool.com I mention them, because they treated me very well and they are the only people I know who offer refurbished Wacom Tablets (really and truly as good as new and whole lot cheaper price wise not cheaper quality wise). I really can't imagine drawing or computing without a tablet.

<LI>This next piece of advice is easiest to follow if you are building your own computer but. . . <ul>

<LI>Try to make sure that whatever PC you pick, the first bank of memory is maxed out. Well, come to think of it, the new motherboards are getting pretty big in the amount of memory they can hold.

<LI>But the reason I suggest this is because I hate to buy a machine that say is capable of holding 128 MB of RAM in the first Memory slot and only putting 64 MB in the slot. The way I see it, if 64 MB cost $100 and 128 MB cost $150, then you're throwing away $100 if you get the $64 MB, when what you really want is the 128 to max out the first slot

<LI>otherwise, later when you max out all the slots, you end up left with a "rinky dinky" 64 MB memory chip that you have to sell to recover some of the lost value

<LI>I just think that it is cleaner for future upgrades, to have the first slot maxed out so that you're not losing future power

<LI>I say this is easier to do if you're building your own (or paying someone to build it for you) because I don't know about the Canadian Retail stores but here in Houston, if you ask a sales person whether the first bank is maxed out, I'll bet 9 out of 10 will give you a dumb look. If you decide to pursue that question, ask to talk to the store technician (hopefully they know or can help you find out . . . good luck. . . sometimes they're as useless as the sales person. But sometimes the sales person couldn't possibly know what the motherboard features are. . . the manufacturers may switch motherboard suppliers mid stream. . . etc etc that's why, ulitmately, it is best to custom build your PC (like Compaq, Dell, or Gateway) or if there is a local computer builder with a good reputation for support -- hey support your local computer geeks[/list]

<LI>Do buy the best monitor you can afford. When I got my NEC, 17" monitors were still around $800 (US) and they were still seen as luxurious. Now, I think the 21/22" monitor is closer to the old 17" price point than it ever was before, so I'd go for the 21/22" monitor. I've been sorely wishing I had a 22" monitor recently. And just like with the tablet, you only have one pair of eyes so do take care of them.

<LI>here in Houston, it is hard to find 21/21" monitors on sale in the store, so I'd buy my monitor from PC Connection 1-800-800-5555 www.pcconnection.com./graphics they have some of the best prices on hardware and software and they are polite, and prompt -- you can't ask for too much more!

<LI>processor speed and chipsets OK, I think it is promising that you even ask about chipsets, given that you are currently a novice. But really the chipset question is mostly the kind of info only hard core PC geeks worry about. Depending on how dedicated you are to learning about PC stuff, you may be ready for the chipset question in a year of living with your computer but the best rule is always to buy the most you can afford at the time. A $2000 (US)(not counting monitor or tablet) purchase has always been able to last about 3 years. Believe it or not, 3 years is a really good lifespan for a PC. Less than $2000, should last you for 2 years. It is also best to buy the bulk of the software that you plan to use at or near the time you buy the computer. Because software that you buy 3-5 years from now will really start to make your PC feel old (when really it is running perfectly well, you've just installed programs geared to the newest and "bestest" hardware)

<LI>Myself, I am a huge AMD fan. The rock bottom price wars we've seen in PCs and prices is directly attributable to AMD's persistence and tenacity. They are kind of the David and Intel is the Goliath. I choose to reward "David" with my money and so back in '98 I got my father and my neighbor to also buy AMD chips currently running K62 350. We've all been very satisfied with the chips and the motherboards that I selected (but again, I spent weeks researching what I thought was the best motherboard at the time. I'm a computer geek and proud of it!

In the PC industry, we have often called the union between Microsoft and Intel the "Wintel Consortium". So I would recommend against encouraging an Intel monopoly on chips. That said, Intel does make fine chips and you won't go wrong by getting and intel chip.

<LI>But you made a second posting asking for a "dummies guide" to buying PCs. No place else but Houston, Space City. Man, I love this town! The Houston Chronicle has the best digital guru
http://www.dwightsilverman.com/minspecs.htm

<LI>Dwight keeps the list pretty current. And he's very professional about responding to reader email so please drop by and read his stuff. You won't be sorry!

<LI>but the Houston Chronicle's Tech Section, every Friday, just can't be beat. It is awesoeme. I love to read it. Find it here
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/tech/index.html[/list]

Good Luck!

Athena
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[This message was edited by T. Athena Hatton on August 14, 2000 at 06:57 AM.]

[This message was edited by T. Athena Hatton on August 14, 2000 at 07:24 AM.]

[imallforgod]

While Flat screens are beautiful, if you're working wiht graphics the screen resolution and dpi is very poor. I would not recommend getting a flat screen unless you can afford one with the dpi and resolution of a regular monitor. Flat screens tend to distort color and be more blurry than regular monitors.
And I'm a fellow mac hater too *LOL* Unfortunately, I work with 4 mac lovers...I used to be one...until I got my first PC [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Check it out::
http://projectsalvation.com

[SandDancr]

I just had to stop and throw in my 2 cents here... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I am not impressed with the flat panel screens, particularly for graphics....so don't even waste the money. I do agree with the Trinitrons...and the more RAM the better. Try to spring for at least 256K...you won't be sorry!

Check out the Dell refurshished computers at Dell You will find that you can probably get a configuration closer to what you want for the price you want to pay.

If you can afford the speed go for it....you won't be unhappy when you hit a graphic intense site and it takes an hour to load....like mine. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img] (Gotta do something about that...soon).

The Matrox graphics card is super...but the GEForce is no wimp either, so you can't go too far wrong with either.

And for you Mac haters...tsk, tsk, tsk! Be fair guys...both computers have their place. I use both and my MAC SE is still going strong after 15 years....never ever been in the shop for repairs...knock on wood! I am dying to get the Cube....but I also want an Athlon 850...anyone want a used HP PIII 400 mhz?

Good luck!

SandDancr Studios

The sandcastles of our lives are nothing when compared to the tides of our destinies.

[pknair]

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] Did I see $1/MB for RAM a bit earlier in this thread?!? Youch! I managed to get 128 MB PC100 RAM here in Toronto for $89 + tax, and on some days you can get even better than that. If you want to go with PC133,then you'll be paying about $95 + tax. For anyone in the GTA, I'd definitely suggest picking up any components you need at College & Spadina. There are tons of computer stores there and so it's incredibly competitive. Apparently the lowest component prices in Canada can be found there. I can believe it, since putting together my PC cost me less than $2K CDN, minus the monitor and the graphics card (a Matrox Marvel G400 Dual-Head which I bought direct from them). And I didn't really skimp on any parts for my machine, either. Some of the prices you guys have mentioned here (and I'm assuming most of these are in USD) would turn my hair white (if it weren't already halfway there)!!!

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Honestly, though, the system requirements listed here are excellent suggestions. Don't think I could have said it better myself. Incidentally, the G4 cube is really that good, huh? I was drooling just at the description! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, since I noticed you're in Toronto, I thought I'd suggest going to College & Spadina sometime - just pop from store to store and pick up price lists. The people are pretty knowledgeable, too (if somewhat sketchy with their English at times - don't expect them to know any French. Trust me - I tried). Expect, however, to spend at least a whole day, there, searching for all the components you want. Chances are you'll find exactly what you're looking for, and for an amazing price, but you'll end up buying your parts from about 5 or 6 different stores. I'd say start right at the intersection, then go west along College until the next major intersection, cross the street, start heading back east until you hit Spadina, then start going south until about Dundas (maybe even a bit further) then cross the street and head north back to College. You'll find most of the stores in that general area, and whatever you don't find, you can be sure that the differences in price from the stores you've already checked out will be slim (like I said - EXTREMELY competitive).

If you want more info on that area, feel free to e-mail me off-list. Can't guarantee I'll get back to you quick-fast, but I'll do my best!

Rgds,
Deep (just a guy)


hth,
Deep (just a guy)

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