Vis Mask in Painter: no you're not going crazy.

[athena]

<ul>premises
<LI>we have many talented visitors to this forum
<LI>we have many busy vistors to this forum
<LI>we have many visitors who come here with questions and they hope to find answers
<LI>these sets of people do not necessarily intersect or overlap each other in any or all instances.
<hr>
given that the above are true, I consider it very important for people who post to recognize the needs of the various audiences that gather here.

<LI>I would further point out that if the busy or talented people do stop and diagnose a question or concern that a visitor has, then they should at least do the visitor the courtesy of reading their question or concern in it's etirety. . . .before jumping to a diagnosis. All will be much better served if the plain english that is written here is read carefully before a diagnosis is delivered.

<LI>please appreciate that an off the cuff diagnosis only exacerbates the frustration a user can feel when he or she has plainly taken great effort to illustrate a question or concern.

<LI>of course, it is also customary in civil discussion, to not fly off the handle at visitors who offer their diagnoses in an attempt to salve the injury . . . but sometimes the diagoses or prescribed treatment could be like salt on a wound -- especially if it appears that the suggested treatment has not addressed the source of the problem or only addresses the symptoms.[/list]

With all that said, here are my newest

1. observations on the vis mask issue.
   
   <LI>it seems to be OS independent. I have been able to generate similar artifacts (i'll go ahead and use artifacts because for my images, I got grey dots or darker purple dots . . .not black . .. this will cover any dots that are not colored the color that I had intended and are generated by some vis mask activity) in my images when i use a vis mask that does not go from edge to edge. ( i have not tried to simply go edge to edge on a layer and see if the vis mask works flawlessly. Thelonious is using a Mac OS I am using Win ME
   
   <LI>we have not eliminated that this is not processor dependent. Both Thelonious and I are using non intel processors. this bug could be looking for something that the intel processor delivers (and we know how well intel processors can calculate [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] )
   
   <LI>whereas Thelonious seems to be able to duplicate this error regularly, I can only duplicate it every now and then. For me, the artifacts appear sporadically. Although I am looking into a link between the vis mask and the zoom tool. I currently suspect a zoom rasterizing problem corrupts tiny fragments of the layer. but this is only a guess. and I would have to run more tests to be more conclusive for my system.
   
   <LI>this vis mask, when it malfuncions, actually does permanent damage to the layer because when you save the file as a .rif and then re-open the file the artifacts are still visible
   
   <LI>I have no previous experience with Adobe Photoshop so I have no expectations of what the vis mask should do
   
   <LI>I do not make it a habit of reading the manual unless absolutely necessary. This particular topic seemed to be obtusely written (unlike other items in the manual that are more clearly written). . .it was not explained the way i would explain it (and this assumes that I have, through fiddling around, grasped what is going on with the vis mask
   <LI>
   
   1. <LI>when I generate a new layer, we'll call it Bugsy layer Painter generates 2 supporting masks in the mask toolbox
      <LI>these 2 masks are the
      
      1. <LI>Busgsy RGB mask --- this defines the colors within the vis mask
         <LI>Bugsy vis mask ---- this defines the shape of positive and negative space within the vis mask which ultimately defines the positive and negative space within the layer
      
      
      <LI>my observations also note that you can use black ... and i think i read somewhere shades of grey and white to define the shape of positive and negative space in the Bugsy vis mask.
      <LI>whether the Bugsy vis mask is selected is very important in determining if you change the shape of the bugsy vis mask.
      <LI>color selection also seems to play a key role in adding or subtracting to the shape of the bugsy vis mask.
      <LI>whether you have selected the color before or after you select the Bugsy vis mask also seems like an important factor.
      <LI>I was unable to definitively cause artifacts to appear on my layer by erasing and then using the undo last stroke but I did have a mysterious artifact appear in a part of my layer I thought I had not touched with my brush/stylus
      <LI>the Bugsy vis mask is like a stencil i can fill with color by selecting the Bugsy RGB mask. I must have the Bugsy RGB mask selected to color in the Vis mask stencil
      <LI>I think, I can only affect color when I have the Bugsy RGB mask selected.
      <LI>it was while coloring in some fun colors in my bugsy stencil (while having the Bugsy RGB mask selected) that I generated a number of artifacts that showed up within the confines of the Bugsy Vismask
      <LI>I don't know if this is just another bugged feature of the vis mask or an accurate or innacurate reflection of Thelonious' error.
      <LI>If I seem to be on the right track, I will then take the time to generate some step by step images to clarify my experiences.
      
      <LI>If i have been unclear, please tell me. I would now like to get to the bottom of this.
   
   

thank you for your patience and your time

Athena

[This message was edited by T. Athena Hatton on August 28, 2001 at 06:46.]

[Thelonious]

Looks like you've got something new there Athena. I haven't seen what you describe. I'll be looking forward to a screen shot.

BTW What I describe is not a bug. It is a consequence of using a Vis Mask as a Layer Mask. Vis Masks should not be available to the user to play with. It was just a quick fix so MetaCreations could sell Painter.

Laughingly Tanya Staples from Corel told me that it's supposed to work like that. Yeah sure who wouldn't want to ruin their layer. Doesn't everybody.

I wish some smarty pants who maintains that the Vis Mask is not supposed to be a layer mask would tell me how it is supposed to be used then.

I think this is your cue to step in Mr EW

Thelonious

[Thelonious]

Now some folks say that no one wants a Vis Mask like Photoshop's layer mask because painter is not an image editing program.

I'd like to point out that Painter has a curve dialog box. This is without doubt the most powerful image editing tool that there is! Who is the potential user of this tool. Many Photoshopists go their whole digital live not using the curves (except in the most rudimentary way) because it is so frightening.

The fact that Painter has curves is a testament to its serious image editing credentials. It also has a clone tool designed for image editing. It is a nonsense to suggest that the Vis Mask was not meant to be a layer mask.

Thelonious

[Thelonious]

Well, I think that about wraps it up, although I would like to see a screen shot of what you are describing Athena.

However I will do a tutorial soon on how to use and not use the Vis Mask for new users so they don't have a brain spasm.

But if anyone wants to take issue with anything that's quite alright just be nice and clear.

It would be a special treat if that guy who runs the Painter List could explain here as he did to me about how the black is really the default black which fills all new layers but you can't see it because it has an inverted visibility mask with it. That was so amusing.

T