RGB, CMYK and Xara again... :)

[stephane_fr]

Hello everybody.


I create a new topic, as I find little problems with my ancient works maden in Xara... I spoke about that a little in previous topic I create ("About CMYK, Xara and Photoshop"), but I prefer to open another as there is a few change : I use the trial Xara Pro 7 now...


So : I created my few works into Xara 5, so in RGB mode. Then, in Xara Pro 7 (I downloaded the 7 Pro version this afternoon, to make a try), I've opened these works, I've choosed the "Simulate print colors" to have a simulation of CMYK color system, then I do some changes on the colors, to have - for my eyes - the same colors or nearly the same - than in my original work.
After thats, I export into EPS, to open the new work in illustrator (a bit complicated I admit, but as my first work was into v5, I thought I could go in that way)


But there, in illustrator and when opening the EPS file, colors are completly out. Nothing to do with what I did into Pro 7. Why ? What is really this option "Simulate print colors". Why such results ?
And is there another way, in Pro 7, to work directly (not a simulation) in CMYK system ? And to be sure that, when going into another soft (PShop, Illustrator), having strickly the same colors ?



Thank you very much in advance for your help, and experience with CMYK in Xara...

[mwenz]

You have to assign CMYK values to any colored objects. The Simulate Print Colors is an on-screen effect, not an automatic conversion.

It would help us all to help you if you could upload a sample file. Then we can all talk about the same thing, perhaps with screen shots.

Take care, Mike

*Edit to add*
You can export out as a PDFX-1a file and the conversion should happen in the process. While perhaps not an exact conversion, it can be pretty accurate.

[stephane_fr]

Hello and thank you for your new help.

I did what you are speaking about : I take all the colors individually, then I went into the "cmyk mode" for each, giving a few changes too.

I will send some pictures, indeed it will more clear...
See you later

[stephane_fr]

Here are the pictures.



1. First of all, the logo I created in Xara Xtreme 5. So in RVB colours...

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...0140829674.png


2. Then, after downloading the Designer 7 Pro version, I opened the file. The same picture appears of course...


3. When clicking on the "Simulate print colors", here what I found :

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/...0149614899.png

It look like a typical cmyk picture, darker than the RGB one. So no problem for the moment...


4. On the new step, I worked on Designer 7, color by color, to have this result :

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...0153540479.png

Not exactly the same grey-brown than before - I wanted this little change - but the blue is ok, nearly the same than in pic 1.


5. After working on the colors, on cmyk mode for each, I went back to the screen colors. Here it is :

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/...0157513482.png

A bit flashy... But back in RGB mode I suppose, so i could expect that...


6. Now the bad things will come... I exported the 4th picture (the new cmyk file in Pro 7), in EPS mode, to go from Xara 7 to illustrator. Here is the result when I opened the file in illustrator :

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/...0201231137.png


As you see, that is a new thing...


7. So I had to work once more, from nothing, in illustrator, color by color, to get this new result :

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...0204777637.png

(like in step 4, grey-brown is a bit different from 1st pic, but blue is ok. The result is ok)




As you see, I spend hours to get a result above average, and that I could get in 2 or 3 steps, I mean without Xara 7 Pro. The passage from Xara 5 to Xara 7 Pro doesn't help me one second, as it was worst leaving from Pro7 than before...

Is there something I didn't understand in the RGB/Cmyk modes in Pro 7 ?
What is really this "simulate print color" ?
Is it my export in EPS size that was not maden correctly ?
etc...



Thank you for your help

[mwenz]

Hello Stephane,

Actually, I meant the Xara file--no worries, though.

Here's the thing. I doubt you will see on-screen the exact color rendition you want. While some applications do a better job of simulation, the fact remains that a monitor can only display color in RGB. It takes a pretty decent monitor capable of color calibration--and the equipment/software to calibrate the monitor--in order to accurately display CMYK on a monitor. Even then, it has to be calibrated for a given lighting system/environment and one cannot even change from one brand of lighting bulbs without recalibration. That is, if one desires as near absolute on-screen display as one can obtain.

Ok, all the "bad news" aside, for using CMYK or Pantone color one simply has to design to the desired values and check the output. Do not worry about whether the screen representation is "accurate." What truly matters is the output.

I have attached two screen shots and one PDF. I would strongly advise using PDFX-1a for moving files between XDP and Illy or PhotoShop.

As you can see in the two screen shots that were checked for color accuracy inside Acrobat, the PDF carries the accurate (but rounded) CMYK color values. I can also provide screen shots within PhotoShop and PhotoLine (my main photo editor). But the PDFs come in accurately to them as well.

Download the PDF and import it into Illy. There may be a couple parts of the file when using a PDF you need to delete in Illy, like the page clip. But that's easy enough.

Take care, Mike

[stephane_fr]

Hello Mike,

First I thank you for your answers.


I made a new test this morning (morning here, in France )

So : I have my first work done into Xara5. I open it into XP7. I put the option "simulate color p". I do a copy then I change the CMYK specifies of each color, to get the same thing than in the first work.

Then I follow what you suggest : to export into PDFX-1a (I choosed PDFX-1a 2003).

When the PDFX opens, I get the same (new) colors than in my previous post, that are a bit insipid I would say.
But when I open this PDFX into XP7, then the colors are the same than with my work into XP7


Here are the pictures :

1. Into X5 :

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...1432195474.jpg


2. Into XP7 (after changing the CMYK specifies - but "simulate print c" out) :

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...1435766202.jpg


3. Exported into PDFX-1a (and opened into PDF Exchange viewer) :

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/...1439480591.jpg


4. PDFX opened into XP7 :

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/...1443921827.jpg



May I ask you what are your conclusions with this ? I don't see changes with the PDFx export.
I have surely a bad calibration of my screen, but is it only that ?

[stephane_fr]

Another observation. And I think it will help for undersanding what happens...


I use 2 different methods :

1. I export my XP7 work into EPS, then I open the EPS into illy
2. I copy my work into XP7, then I paste into illy.


Here is what happens, concerning the CMYK specifies of the blue color (to take an example) :

- In Xara I have, for the blue : C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0

- In Illy, when opening the EPS file I have for the same blue, the same specifies : C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0
So, the same than in Xara, but for my eyes it is really different from my work in Xara

- In Illy, when copy-pasting the vector work from Xara, I have : C 64 M 0 Y 0 K 0
So, not the same than in Xara, but for my eyes it is the same thing than my work in Xara


So actually, a C 64 M 0 Y 0 K 0 in illy is equivalent to a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in Xara, and a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in illy isn't equivalent to a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in Xara !

[mwenz]

Stephane,

5:30 in the morning here in Oregon, USA...

The screen representation means very little in the larger scheme of things.

What does matter is that the color values can move from design to print, regardless of which application is being used originally to create and or manipulate the graphics along the way to print.

A simple example. If I design a logo that uses CMYK values of 45, 23, 100, 0 then I expect those colors be in the file that the service bureau is printing film from (or digitally printing).

Likewise, if I design that logo in Xara, manipulate the logo in PhotoShop, and place it in InDesign as part of a brochure, I expect the CMYK values to remain consistent when I open the logo in PhotoShop. I also expect those same colors to export from PhotoShop. I further expect those same colors to import into InDesign...and I expect those colors to be in the PDF that InDesign makes for the printer.

What those colors look like in each of the applications is of little importance to me. They need to be reasonably represented, but that is all. It is the chosen CMYK values of 45, 23, 100, 0 that has to "travel" through the various steps of design to print.

CMYK color is (nearly) always a flatter color than on-screen RGB. What computer programs are trying to simulate is that paper is typically a fairly opaque medium. A computer monitor is a back-lit medium and hence is more akin to a light table when viewing say film slides--the actual photo prints never have colors as bright as the slides when viewed on a light table or a slide viewer. Likewise, a computer program is trying to represent the opaque quality of ink on paper and few computer programs made by different software companies can make color look the same when composed on a computer screen (even when using a calibrated monitor. Closer, yes. The same, rarely).

The work-flow path of greatest success, for me, when using 2 or 3 different applications always involves using PDFX-1a to move the various design elements from one application to another.

Again--check the color values. Open the PDF in PhotoShop and check the color in it, not an on-screen representation. If you would like, please make me a sample PDF with your chosen CMYK colors. I would be glad to check the actual color values that Xara exports for you.

Take care, Mike

[mwenz]

...
So actually, a C 64 M 0 Y 0 K 0 in illy is equivalent to a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in Xara, and a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in illy isn't equivalent to a C 100 M 20 Y 0 K 0 in Xara

NO...don't mean to shout, just a lot of emphasis

What matters is that the same color values are in each program. NOT what they look like on-screen.

Always use a printed swatch book for choosing colors for new work where a client does not specify color and or you are creating the identity for them. Never pick colors based purely from an on-screen representation.

Always check the colors using printed proofs to calibrated digital printers.

Always use the prints for communicating with clients whenever possible.

Take care, Mike

[stephane_fr]

Hello Mike, I am very sorry to bother you so soon in the morning, and I thank you once again for your answers and help.


I made printings of my works.

And you were right : I was too quickly abuse by what I saw on screen, as, good new, the print of my file in Xara XPro 7 (after changes on the color, on mode "simulating"), is very very close to my first work.
So here is a good new.

But if it was ok with Xara, it was not with illustrator (in wich I open exported files from Xara).
I exported my Xara XPro 7 files, to several modes (ai/eps , Xara eps, or PDFX). And there the colors, in illustrator, were "in another direction".
The grey was very "pale", and the blue was darker.
(In that way, if I want a work out of illustrator, I am obliged to make, for the second time, a color change color by color - making my work in Pro7 a bit useless)



So remains the problem to go from Xara X Pro to illustrator. And a few reflexions about the method :

- Some could say "why using illy as Xara can do the same thing ?". I agree with that, in the way that i really prefer Xara to illy for any reasons, the first one is the reactivity of Xara, and the intelligense of the ergonomics : everything comes quicker).

- Anyway, as there are some specifics in Xara that don't accept the export in EPS (for example transparencies, or shades), I have to make a new small "passage" into illustrator, to get in this soft the same effects...

- Moreover, as I have to make documents for clients - what you call in US the "visual style guidelines " or "graphic standards" ? - , perhaps (I am not sure about that so I am prudent) I need to go through the standards of a soft like illustrator, to be sure I will have the same CMYK specifies, to tell to the client in this visual style guidelines.

(I don't think only Adobe can do "good specifies", but as I don't know yet what Xara does in that ways, I am just prudent here)

(-> are you ok with these reflexions about illustrator ?)



So... May I ask you what you think about all that (method, obligations, illustrator differencies) ? (Of course I can send you files if necessary)


Thank you again