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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Sorry, exceptionally my post was a little bit too long and technically rejected because of that.

    Here are the last paragraphs :

    ..."It's like a communism - it works only when everyone is a communist"

    But this is the same for every kind of "ism". "Ism's" always arises when lazy theoreticians have found the way to stop thinking, and afterwards "ism's" are imposed to people (by the "regulating factor" of imposed political correctness) with the goal of limiting their free thinking.

    Perhaps that could have been better if I titled "Please stop ism's on Xara forums"...

    ivan

  2. #12
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    Thumbs up Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    This is the reason why I love it to have you here at TG, Ivan!
    This is a very well balanced and profounded answer from your side. *thumbs up*

    Regards,
    Remi

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Ivan good to have you back.

    We all have opinions (good or bad) about open-source software and I think there is one important principle to consider that includes the open-source software debate, but isn't limited to it:

    We should allow people to express their opinions, respect them even if they are different to ours, provided they do no harm to people. The fact that another may not agree with what we might say, need not diminish our own view and we need not feel threatened or insulted by it - eventually we may consider that what they say has merit, despite being different to our own view.

    In the context of open-source I don't think that there is a wrong or right view - people can easily come to a different conclusion about the merits of open-source software depending on their perspective.

    In this respect covoxer makes interesting points as do you, though I doubt that either of you is "right" or "wrong" or even profound.

    Whatever our view it's good to hear alternative viewpoints and there's no point in expressing our own view if we cannot tolerate listening to the differing views of others.

    Welcome back.

    Paul

    [who believes that everyone is entitled to a view, even if it's different to my own and therefore entirely wrong.. ;-) ]

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    First of all, thank you for not leaving community. And for commenting my post. I was really wondering why it hurts you so bad.
    I'll try to explain all the things you had commented. But before I continue, let me assure you that there is no principal contradiction between my message and your point of view. It's just a pitiful misunderstanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by ivan louette View Post
    And Covoxer, if you read this thread, I wouldn't offend you, but your developer's status mentioned under your name give you the power to convince most people of the universal truth of what you are saying. But this kind of power is also a big responsibility and to my sense being so assertive without specifying that you only expressed your personal opinion is not fair.
    As I'm going to explain now, all I said is generally true. I'm ready to edit or delete my post if anyone proves it wrong.
    "the usual and predictable failure of the open source scheme"
    Ideological or naïve or badly informed ?
    No, logical. I had explained this later in my post. There is demand? Yes. Is there a proposition? No. Are people happy? No. Isn't it a failure?
    "the open source was invented as model of developing software by programmers for programmers"
    Wrong because at the origins free programmers were users first (see below)
    So I have to clarify what I meant by "programmers" and "users". Obviously, programmer is a person who writes programs. User is a person who uses programs. But since every person that uses computer including programmers, uses programs, so everyone is user. But far not everyone is a programmer. That's why under "user" I assumed person that is not a programmer (who can not write programs). I didn't thought this can be confusing. Sorry about this.
    "programmers tend to develop software that they need or want or like to develop"
    Of course if programmers were only programmers and completely isolated from the real life... that could be a big problem.
    But most brilliant free software programmers and developers I know have another occupation and they became programmers and developers for the following reasons :
    - 1° because the commercial software they use doesn't match their goals and they may not touch and change it ;
    - 2° because using only commercial software can limit the free circulation and communication of ideas and knowledge (that was one of the origins of the idea of the GPL) ;
    - 3° because at some point commercial software could limit the freedom of expression (which of course is the case when programming is part of this expression).
    You are absolutely right! And so am I. As you say, they just do what they want/need/like to do. Right? There's no problem with this for programmers at all of course. After all, if it was, they wouldn't do it right? And as I said in my controversial post - if everyone become a programmer(well, at least majority of users), then there will be no need in commercial software any more!
    But unfortunately, most users can not become a programmer as you understand.
    Free software programmers aren't some kind of Gods. They are human, communicative and accessible persons who share the best they can do. A lot of them are true artists or true scientists, or true "amateurs" in the purest and nicest sense of this word (like amateur gardeners or amateur naturalists who play a so important role in the circulation of knowledge) !
    Where was I saying opposite? After all I'm one of them.
    "artists prefer XaraLX, programmers prefer Inkscape"
    Just an opinion and to my sense a very narrow interpretation of the words "artists" and "programmers" (see above).
    Unfortunately, from what we all know it is a fact. I'm sure you are familiar with LX thread. Now think about it - how many people were asking and still are, for the LX to be developed? They were not programmers. I assumed them artists because of the nature of this program. On the other hand - how many people are developing LX? None. These are the programmers. So artists want LX, it's a fact, and none of the programmers (including those programmers who are artists at the same time) wants to develop it.
    I'm not sure what do you mean by narrow interpretation, but there's not a single artist/programmer who develops LX that I'm aware of. So am I wrong?
    John.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    "Open source is generally not the best approach at developing software. It lacks the regulating factor. In commercial model the market always balances demand and proposition [....] the most effective regulating factor is a market, and so the demand is best covered with commercial software"
    Ideological or naïve, I don't know... But at the lights of today's (and successive) economics crisis one should be very prudent before speaking about "regulating factors"...
    Well, we don't live that bad today, do we? The market as a regulating factor exists for thousands years and better replacement had not been invented yet even in theory. It started from the time when division of labor became unavoidable due to the technological evolution. In ancient times, everyone was producing everything he needs with his own hands. But since people wanted to live better (and still do), they needed more complicated goods and services. Thus professional specialization was necessary to master ever growing complexity of the labor. With a specialization became trade. People had to trade goods produced by other professions with their own products. But how to make it so that there are enough products of all kinds? Some controlling mechanism is required. The free market is one of them. It is self regulating and it is naturally easy to implement. It has flaws of course, but as I say, all known alternatives are much worse.
    So, at the lights of any crisis, was it 70 years ago or today, it only shows how people that try to control market can destabilize it. It shows flaws of the particular implementation of the market, not the principle of it.
    "If the demand is represented by the non programming group, it will never be properly fulfilled"
    In fact this is exactly the contrary. If I only take today's Inkscape development, bug correction and addition of new features asked by the "non programming" users are extremely fast.
    Yes. But that's because your interest in this product IS represented by demand in programming group. Ask them to develop LX and you'll see what I mean.
    And I must add that if the "Dear Xara" section of Talkgraphics forums is very welcome, useful and constructive, it was waited for a long time while this kind of communication has always been the base of free software development. I wouldn't offend anybody at Xara saying that and I am sure they know that.
    As far as I know, there are much more developers working on Inkscape than on Xtreme. But that's not the point. You see, I was talking about regulatory function of the market because it's a market that fulfills the demand with proposition. Think about it. If you need any kind of software and you are not alone, you'll find it on a market. And nobody who wants this software have to become a programmer. It's quite different story when you become a programmer though. As I say - open source works well for programmers (better than commercial). Market works for everyone.
    John.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    "While the application software is extremely poor, badly developed and of low quality if present at all, comparing to commercial world"
    I don't know what you mean by "quality". Of course if you speak about "Total Look" interfaces in some cases. But otherwise and about richness of functionalities your assertion is mostly wrong.
    Quality of software consists of many factors and in many aspects is a subjective thing. Nevertheless, statistically, most open source application projects never reach release stage being permanent betas. Product in beta stage is positioned by the developer as a product with insufficient quality for public use. Simply, program doesn't work as well as is expected.
    There are exceptions of course, there are brilliant open source programs, of very high quality, but this is not the rule.
    One more thing, you say "richness of functionality". Many projects have very high functionality indeed, and no one can deny it. But functionality is not the only factor that makes software great. For example, take a Virtual Dub (I'm sure you know it). Quite simple program, with limited functionality. But isn't it great? Subjectively of course, but supported by opinion of quite a huge number of users it is really brilliant program. On the other hand take a Gimp. A whole lot of functionality, but is it great? Well, maybe for someone... after all it's all subjective...
    ..."It's like a communism - it works only when everyone is a communist"
    But this is the same for every kind of "ism".
    Some "ism's" for sure, but not all. Humanism or realism have nothing to do with this. I was making this metaphor on communism because it has some ideological similarities to the open source. But you are right, I could say as well that "fascism works only for fascists" or something like this.
    I support what you say about "ism's". Including both "opensourcism" and "antiopensourcism" if you know what I mean. I tend to view things in a sensible light and hope everyone follows.
    I'm definitely not an enemy of the open source. I know it's successes very well, as well as it's failures. As you can easily see, I have never said that open source is useless or something like this. I just say that it is not an universal answer for the software demand. On the other hand, it is very good that there is alternative to the commercial software. After all if it wasn't good, it would never reach this level.
    John.

  7. #17
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    Talking Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Wonderful news! I'm so glad you'll stay, Ivan!

    I enjoy a beautiful open source free program called Stellarium. It is updated and continues to impress me. It is a planetarium program with a lot of power and it is really beautiful in appearance besides. If you'd like to take a look at it, see here. http://www.stellarium.org/
    ---Maya
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do, so throw off the bowlines, sail away from safe harbor, catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, Dream, Discover."
    -Mark Twain

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow Haven View Post
    ...I enjoy a beautiful open source free program called Stellarium.
    Hallelujah! They've finally added useful date entry functions!

    I'm glad you are here, too, Ivan. I agree with your perspective, and Stellarium is just one example of what is right about Open Source (although it took them an awful long time!). But the Xtreme experiment shows that, sadly, not everything can be Open Sourced and work well. Perhaps that is because of a bad fit between 'commercial' and OS, but at least Charles and team tried. Coxover's implication that the market makes things work, and other methods don't, was good for a chuckle.

    Best wishes

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Quote Originally Posted by David O'Neil View Post
    Coxover's implication that the market makes things work, and other methods don't, was good for a chuckle.
    Perhaps instead of chuckling you can name an alternative?
    Last edited by covoxer; 27 April 2009 at 07:19 AM.
    John.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Please stop politics on Xara forums !

    Quote Originally Posted by covoxer View Post
    If you are too limited to read entire sentence then chuckle. Limited people love tu chuckle.
    Please, limit your attacks only to ideas and attitudes, otherwise this thread could be closed by mods while it could be only at its beginnings And a very constructive one, I am sure !

    kindly,
    ivan

 

 

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