Please stop politics on Xara forums !

[ivan louette]

This will be my last message on Talkgraphics forums.

I cannot accept that XaraLX forum were closed on a so political and irrespective message : http://www.talkgraphics.com/showpost...6&postcount=39

The greatest universally renowned flemish painters in the Renaissance were closely concerned by the invention and fabrication of oil painting which was a true revolution. At all times artists were extremely involved in the evolution of their media.

It's totally inexact to say that artists aren't concerned by programmers work !!! Not later than yesterday a Belgian comics designer (and they aren't so bad...) remained three hours with me at a demo of Inkscape and XaraLX I did at a little free software exhibition organized by the students on Louvain-la-Neuve University campus.

Sorry, now I am going out.

ivan

[remi]

Hi Ivan,

I feel bad to hear, that you will stop your postings here.

Regarding to the Open Source discussion: Xara Xtreme LX was started as an interesting project, but it is now more popular as an bad example within the Open Source community, which other companies or developers can learn from. The Open Source community works different as Xara Ltd. thought and I'm sure they wanted to see this project has never started. I don't blame Xare or the two or three Open Source developers who are interested in this project for this. Every side has learned a lesson and without learning we will see no progress.

Regarding to John's opinion about the quality of Open Source software: I don't see it in this negative way. Instead, I'm very happy that a lot of developers are willing to develop Open Source software and that there are great alternatives available in competition with the commercial products.

Regards,
Remi

[RTK]

(oh no, they are throwing puddings at me, war of the open source against anti open source puddings EEEK LOLOLOLOL

Never saw a war... missed the pudding throwing too..

If it's free (and usable) -- I'm there! Never saw an "anti" anything. I certainly did not see any "EEEK LOLOLOLOL" (whatever that means?)

Ivan, (if you still come back to read this) -- We have met in person and have shared Quebec cheese, wine, beer and a too rushed prime sushi dinner... Did you see me as having horns and a devil's tail and being a hateful and disrespectful person? I was a TG mod (at the time).

I have not met the mods here but I'm 100% sure they are trying to keep things as sane as possible for the community as whole -- they really are here for TG (no matter what the usual whiners think they know).

Being a moderator is difficult (making everyone happy is impossible). Working out language is difficult... Ivan, we also struggled with language but we worked it out because we wanted to make it work... All I'm asking is that you keep "language" in mind -- things are misunderstood all the time when the web clashes with cultures and language (and emotions).

Ivan, I see you as very, very, intelligent and a humble man... With great ideas and a drive (with an ultimate goal) that puts us as all at shame here at TG (I hope it will work out for you). All I want to say is, you met me in person and according to some, I'm the biggest ******* that ever volunteered his time here... The current mods have more patience (and better language skills) than I ever had. They are good people!

You post great ideas and techniques... And people do read and take note and learn, even though they don't always comment. There is no reason for a "last post" -- PM a mod and talk it over and you will see that they are not bad people.

Ivan, you don't need to leave... Take some time... More people than you could ever imagine enjoy your posts here at TG. Things spill over (from all kinds of places) and get all mixed up... You need to be here at TG. Period!

Drop me a PM if you want to talk in private.

Risto

[handrawn]

Knowing the reasons behind this Ivan, I respect them

TG will be the poorer for your not being here, and that is a real shame for the community, we shall miss you

But I know you will be active as ever in the things that matter to you, as should we all be, and that is what counts

I wish you all the very best, and if you do decide to return we shall all be very pleased to welcome you back

votre ami dans un monde de changement
steve

[ivan louette]

I apologise for the violence of my reaction after seeing the closure of XaraLX forum.

And Risto, Steve, Maya, Ross, Remi, Sledger, Ankhor, Ascerbic (and possibly others before I post), thanks for your sympathy and your reactions. I will not leave Talkgraphics forums ; your friendship convinced me.

In fact I continue to use some commercial software, including XX4 because I am not an ideologist nor a pure theoretician (even if I think that philosophising a bit and putting things in perspective is absolutely indispensable).

However the coincidence between that and the - to my opinion - shocking last message in the xaralx progress thread was explosive for me ! I continue to feel the contents of this message as very offending not only because a lot of assertions inside are hazardous, but also because of its quiet certitude about the sort of "elitism" and the often bad quality of free software.

And Covoxer, if you read this thread, I wouldn't offend you, but your developer's status mentioned under your name give you the power to convince most people of the universal truth of what you are saying. But this kind of power is also a big responsibility and to my sense being so assertive without specifying that you only expressed your personal opinion is not fair.
Now on which kind of informations you build your opinion is another kind of thing. I think in this area even statistics fail to demonstrate anything... and of course statistics could be biased by the position of who did or who read them. But in any case truth requires humility.

Now I would detail my own opinion about what you wrote.

"the usual and predictable failure of the open source scheme"

Ideological or naïve or badly informed ?

"the open source was invented as model of developing software by programmers for programmers"

Wrong because at the origins free programmers were users first (see below)

"programmers tend to develop software that they need or want or like to develop"

Of course if programmers were only programmers and completely isolated from the real life... that could be a big problem.

But most brilliant free software programmers and developers I know have another occupation and they became programmers and developers for the following reasons :

- 1° because the commercial software they use doesn't match their goals and they may not touch and change it ;

- 2° because using only commercial software can limit the free circulation and communication of ideas and knowledge (that was one of the origins of the idea of the GPL) ;

- 3° because at some point commercial software could limit the freedom of expression (which of course is the case when programming is part of this expression).

Free software programmers aren't some kind of Gods. They are human, communicative and accessible persons who share the best they can do. A lot of them are true artists or true scientists, or true "amateurs" in the purest and nicest sense of this word (like amateur gardeners or amateur naturalists who play a so important role in the circulation of knowledge) !

"artists prefer XaraLX, programmers prefer Inkscape"

Just an opinion and to my sense a very narrow interpretation of the words "artists" and "programmers" (see above).

"Open source is generally not the best approach at developing software. It lacks the regulating factor. In commercial model the market always balances demand and proposition [....] the most effective regulating factor is a market, and so the demand is best covered with commercial software"

Ideological or naïve, I don't know... But at the lights of today's (and successive) economics crisis one should be very prudent before speaking about "regulating factors"...

"If the demand is represented by the non programming group, it will never be properly fulfilled"

In fact this is exactly the contrary. If I only take today's Inkscape development, bug correction and addition of new features asked by the "non programming" users are extremely fast.
And I must add that if the "Dear Xara" section of Talkgraphics forums is very welcome, useful and constructive, it was waited for a long time while this kind of communication has always been the base of free software development. I wouldn't offend anybody at Xara saying that and I am sure they know that.

"While the application software is extremely poor, badly developed and of low quality if present at all, comparing to commercial world"

I don't know what you mean by "quality". Of course if you speak about "Total Look" interfaces in some cases. But otherwise and about richness of functionalities your assertion is mostly wrong.

...

ivan

[ivan louette]

Sorry, exceptionally my post was a little bit too long and technically rejected because of that.

Here are the last paragraphs :

..."It's like a communism - it works only when everyone is a communist"

But this is the same for every kind of "ism". "Ism's" always arises when lazy theoreticians have found the way to stop thinking, and afterwards "ism's" are imposed to people (by the "regulating factor" of imposed political correctness) with the goal of limiting their free thinking.

Perhaps that could have been better if I titled "Please stop ism's on Xara forums"...

ivan

[remi]

This is the reason why I love it to have you here at TG, Ivan!
This is a very well balanced and profounded answer from your side. *thumbs up*

Regards,
Remi

[covoxer]

First of all, thank you for not leaving community. And for commenting my post. I was really wondering why it hurts you so bad.
I'll try to explain all the things you had commented. But before I continue, let me assure you that there is no principal contradiction between my message and your point of view. It's just a pitiful misunderstanding.

And Covoxer, if you read this thread, I wouldn't offend you, but your developer's status mentioned under your name give you the power to convince most people of the universal truth of what you are saying. But this kind of power is also a big responsibility and to my sense being so assertive without specifying that you only expressed your personal opinion is not fair.

As I'm going to explain now, all I said is generally true. I'm ready to edit or delete my post if anyone proves it wrong.

"the usual and predictable failure of the open source scheme"
Ideological or naïve or badly informed ?

No, logical. I had explained this later in my post. There is demand? Yes. Is there a proposition? No. Are people happy? No. Isn't it a failure?

"the open source was invented as model of developing software by programmers for programmers"
Wrong because at the origins free programmers were users first (see below)

So I have to clarify what I meant by "programmers" and "users". Obviously, programmer is a person who writes programs. User is a person who uses programs. But since every person that uses computer including programmers, uses programs, so everyone is user. But far not everyone is a programmer. That's why under "user" I assumed person that is not a programmer (who can not write programs). I didn't thought this can be confusing. Sorry about this.

"programmers tend to develop software that they need or want or like to develop"
Of course if programmers were only programmers and completely isolated from the real life... that could be a big problem.
But most brilliant free software programmers and developers I know have another occupation and they became programmers and developers for the following reasons :
- 1° because the commercial software they use doesn't match their goals and they may not touch and change it ;
- 2° because using only commercial software can limit the free circulation and communication of ideas and knowledge (that was one of the origins of the idea of the GPL) ;
- 3° because at some point commercial software could limit the freedom of expression (which of course is the case when programming is part of this expression).

You are absolutely right! And so am I. As you say, they just do what they want/need/like to do. Right? There's no problem with this for programmers at all of course. After all, if it was, they wouldn't do it right? And as I said in my controversial post - if everyone become a programmer(well, at least majority of users), then there will be no need in commercial software any more!
But unfortunately, most users can not become a programmer as you understand.

Free software programmers aren't some kind of Gods. They are human, communicative and accessible persons who share the best they can do. A lot of them are true artists or true scientists, or true "amateurs" in the purest and nicest sense of this word (like amateur gardeners or amateur naturalists who play a so important role in the circulation of knowledge) !

Where was I saying opposite? After all I'm one of them.

"artists prefer XaraLX, programmers prefer Inkscape"
Just an opinion and to my sense a very narrow interpretation of the words "artists" and "programmers" (see above).

Unfortunately, from what we all know it is a fact. I'm sure you are familiar with LX thread. Now think about it - how many people were asking and still are, for the LX to be developed? They were not programmers. I assumed them artists because of the nature of this program. On the other hand - how many people are developing LX? None. These are the programmers. So artists want LX, it's a fact, and none of the programmers (including those programmers who are artists at the same time) wants to develop it.
I'm not sure what do you mean by narrow interpretation, but there's not a single artist/programmer who develops LX that I'm aware of. So am I wrong?

[Ross Macintosh]

I fail to see 'politics' in Covoxer's posting. What he wrote seemed like a realistic assessment of reality. I don't see him saying "artists aren't concerned by programmers work". Of course artists respect the work of programers who develop tools -- but that respect alone isn't likely enough to motivate someone to create tools for others.

Sorry Ivan if you have trouble with all this.

regards, Ross

[steve.ledger]

It's totally inexact to say that artists aren't concerned by programmers work !!!

Ivan I truly hope this is a misunderstanding, I cannot see where John said that artists are not concerned by programmers work?
Is this the line you are referring to?

"..artists prefer XaraLX, programmers prefer Inkscape..."


The decision to archive the Xtreme for Linux forum was discussed and made many hours before John's post in the Xaralx progress! thread. The forum was closed not on his but on Bill's final post.

Please reconsider - we'll miss you