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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    interesting.....

    'skill is being able to do something - talent is getting of your backside and actually making something of it'

    way I see it

    oh and a message for Frank from a friend: "the whole darn computer is a plugin to some '
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Ross, I believe your thinking on skill and talent is very flawed. To avoid any confusion, here's my take on it. The most interesting sentence on that page is
    you simply can’t train for all the variables in any given job and talent is what separates the outstanding people from the average. Talent allows them to come up with the right solutions when things happen that are a bit out of the ordinary
    Steve: "the whole darn computer is a plugin to some" is a valid point. But you could take that back to the develoment of real colours and pigments, and sable brushes, and acrylic paints etc etc etc. They're all plugins aren't they. They're all aids at the end of the day. But to say that Michelangelo was a skilled painter instead of a hugely talented artist is to do him a disservice.

    "Isn't tracing over a photograph basically a 'plug-in'?" Sure, if you say so. But if it were that easy everybody would be doing it, and they're not. Why? Because apart from skill with the mouse or the tablet, it requires a good eye and enormous patience and persistence, all things that you cannot teach, and for those that stay the course the results are terribly rewarding and make most people stand back and gasp in amazement. You can deny that such work requires skill but no talent, but in that case you are saying that most people on Talkgraphics are both unskilled and talentless. Apart, of course, from those people who are "above such talentless reproduction".

    Some people in an art class can sketch and it looks like something. Others in the same class sketch and it looks like nothing. What differentiates one from the other? Skill? I don't think so, and I don't think the rest of you think so either.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frank View Post
    You can deny that such work requires skill but no talent, but in that case you are saying that most people on Talkgraphics are both unskilled and talentless.
    no Frank - I am not decrying the skill and talent of anyone here - what I am saying is that these things as process are relative, it is the skill that matters not the process

    talent is originality, knowing where to take your skill, which direction to go in...

    and that ties in nicely with your quote - coming up with the goods when the situation is abnormal
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    You say "here's my take on it" but isn't that the site of Acland Brierty in New Zealand and not Big Frank in France?

    Anyways, with regards to the quote:
    "you simply can’t train for all the variables in any given job and talent is what separates the outstanding people from the average. Talent allows them to come up with the right solutions when things happen that are a bit out of the ordinary"

    It seems to me that what Mr. Brierty is calling having talent is actually 'good judgement', and I believe good judgement -like talent- is not something you are born with but something you develop. Post-graduate Schools of Businesses for instance attempt to enhance both their students' judgement and analytical skills.

    By the way I realize my view points on Talent are not common and I may never convince anyone I'm right. I just hope those among us who have used 'lack of talent' as an excuse to not try developing skills, will be encouraged to not hold back from trying. I'd also hope that maybe some inclined to dismiss others for their lack of talent might stop and consider that ranking oneself against others in 'giftedness' is kind of petty. If someone truly believe that God gave them a gift of talent more than others, why measure that gift against others? Instead maybe I'll encourage someone to be proud of the skills they have developed without it having to be a relative thing as 'talent' typically is.

    Regards, Ross

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by handrawn View Post
    talent is originality, knowing where to take your skill, which direction to go in...
    Talent as I define it is innate ability, often described as a 'gift'. Originality is just that: originality. I think you are thinking of talent as having a 'creative spark'. I don't deny that some people definitely have a 'creative spark' or 'flair' that makes them standout from the crowd. I just don't think that spark/flair is a 'gift' that you either blessed with or not. Instead I believe all children have the potential to have their spark but sadly most fail to develop it. Big Frank has a spark for developing the kinds of graphics he does. Had he been exposed to different nurturing perhaps that spark would have developed in say, mathematics.

    I once read, or was told, that part of the reason the Senators were concerned about Julius Caesar was that he had a relatively unique ability to read silently. In the Roman period the vast majority of readers had to do it aloud. Caesar's 'talent' for reading silently made the Senators fearful that Caesar really was a 'chosen one' and it was threatening to them. It isn't to suggest this was a primary reason for drawing out their knives but perhaps a factor in their attitudes towards him. Anyways, today we realize that reading silently is just a skill (and not a unique gift) and young readers are pushed to develop the skill -- and your average seven year old masters.

    In Victorian England young middle & upper class women were routinely educated how to embroider, draw, and do watercolours. The level of skills attained by the average student then would be characterized by most people today as extremely talented - yet almost every girl in that period had those abilities. Alas, today we can read silently but are lousy at the water colours! What we are taught today somewhat reflects the values of our societies. Artistic educations are not all that valued so when someone develops a higher level of skills we put them on a pedestal as 'talented' instead of just accepting they've developed more skills.

    Regards, Ross

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    no - I would agree 'creative spark' is not a 'gift' - nothing comes free

    I think you and I more or less agree here Ross, just put it a bit differently

    talent is much more judgement than skill - you do need the skill to carry it through of course

    originality springs from a good knowlelge base and good judgement

    so a lot of semantics, but common ground I trust
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  7. #17
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    SKill....talent, they seem so similar to me. I've always felt that they both come from practice, drive, passion, a goal. If I were to try and differentiate them, I'd say skill is learned and talent is innate, but you can't have either one without passion.

    I've read that many of the wealthiest business moguls were not the brightest kids in school; that they were average students. What set them apart was a drive to attain, succeed, create...a passion to achieve something.

    If you have passion for something, you practice it. If you practice you become good at it. If you have a natural talent for it, it will come forth. You can succeed to your goal if you love what you are doing.


    Handrawn...an honest opinion about drawing practices in Xara. You say that tracing around objects is laziness. I asked about this in the off topic and it seemed that it was not frowned upon but I read here that some do frown on it.

    This reminds me of the debate over using your own models in your 3D work. Most people don't have the software, the talent/skill or time to make their own models. So they should not bother creating work because they bought the models? There's a million dollar industry sellling models crafted by other people so that those who can't can still create art. This industry would disappear without them.

    In XaraX, if someone can't get proportions correct and struggle to draw straight lines, should they not bother creating in Xara? I can draw but there's always something 'off' when I do. I'm never satisfied with what I draw. I could spend a whole night worrying a drawing without ever getting past it to the actual creation of the image. If it's considered bad taste to trace, then I should just give up using XX now.

    If only good golfers were allowed on golf courses, they'd be empty.
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  8. #18
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Burpee View Post
    Handrawn...an honest opinion about drawing practices in Xara. You say that tracing around objects is laziness.
    I was being ironic Nancy - its not lazy at all

    Frank implied plugins was lazy - so I just pointed out there may be some who, by the same token, think tracing is too...

    you would have to be exceptional to do real photorealism without some tracing, so its perfectly all right

    actually everything is perfectly all right just so long as its not theft [and otherwise legal too]

    'it aint what you use, its the way that you use it'
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  9. #19
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Nancy (Burpee) - as you know there will always be others who don't like one's technique. Be it tracing, photo reference, bitmap fills/texturing, clipart usage, non-vector techniques, use of plug-ins, too-much-detail, too-little-detail, photorealism, not realistic enough, post-processing etc. etc. there are as many viewpoints as there are are individuals. We must soldier on! Actually I hope it isn't soldiering as we really must enjoy ourselves. Hopefully some others will enjoy what we produce but we can't invest ourselves too heavily in their opinions lest we get discouraged too easily.

    If we live for the approval of others there are easier courses for us to take than creative pursuits. We could hand out dollars on the street corner and get lots of high-fives & smiles!

    There can be so much challenge and joy in image creation that we really can be satisfied without the approval of others. Sharing our work with others can be our gift but we have no control over how it will be received. As you are well aware, where we share it does correlate to what feedback we receive. Around here (at Talkgraphics) the support is generally positive as we tend to go out of our way to support one another (vs. knocking each other down as occurs at some graphics sites). Talkgraphics has been described as lacking in serious criticsm but that can be found at other sites. Here it seems to be more about sharing a passion. In that the level of skill doesn't matter much as we all can get something meaningful from participation. Those that can't move on - or take a break. By now you are probably realizing most of us here actually like each other. (I wish Big Frank would come for a visit in Prince Edward Island. I have no doubt we'd get along famously even if he believes in that stupid talent concept and I don't. ).

    Regards, Ross

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Thanks Handrawn. I was worried I'd have to take drawing lessons, lol.

    Ross, wise words. You are correct, of course, we must create for ourselves. I tend to like approval as I've never had much self confidence. Since I don't have alot of dollar bills either, I'll have to learn to believe in myself without expecting others to make me feel good about myself. I don't think I need Dr. Phil yet, though
    Things you should never say when pulled over by the police:
    Could you hold my beer while I dig out my license?

 

 

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