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  1. #1
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    Default Plug ins and the meaning of life

    There's been a lot of tittle tattle from both sides of the fence about the use of plugins recently, and it's an argument that has been going on for years. I know I have ruffled a few feather, unintentionally to be sure, but ruffled they have been, with my comments here and there. I just want to put them into context. Clearly I am posting this here because this is the plugins forum.

    Many years ago when the WWW was in its infancy I used Usenet to communicate with other artists and designers. There were no such things as web designers in those days, just designers. I remember I was using a very early version of Photoshop, 2 or 3, I can't remember. And there were virtually no plugins available. If you wanted to achieve an effect you did it yourself using Photoshop's far more limited set of tools than we have available to us today. But you did it and you were proud of what you had achieved.

    I remember that we would sometimes upload reduced-size images to one of the alt.graphic.photoshop newsgroups on our steam-driven 9600 hayes-compatible modems (14.4 if we were rich!). Quite out of the blue, drop shadows started to become popular. You couldn't do them in PSP or any other raster app that didn't have transparent, editable layers. Only in Photoshop could you create proper, anti-aliased drop shadows of varying size, blur and intensity, and even then there were people who had Photoshop but who could do them. No, I'm not joking.

    And one of the most common questions that came up in the graphics newsgroups (after "can somebody give me a serial number for Photoshop?") was "where can I get a plug-in for those drop shadows". Well there weren't any at the time, not for drop shadows. Many people just assumed that this "trick" had to be a plug-in. And it upset a lot of people (yes, me included) who had paid for their software and had "served their time" as it were.

    The situation is, of course, completely different nowadays. the world has moved on at a rapid pace and software continues to evolve to make some of the most demanding tasks possible with a plug-in. I myself have and do use plug-ins. In the "Taj Mahal" image below I used the Chrome plug-in. In the "Chocolate bar" image I used the XXP4 3D plug-in, and again in the "XARA out of bounds" image. But in the "Salt and Pepper Shakers" image which I did in 2001, there was no chrome plug-in or 3D filter used. because they didn't exist. We had to create our own chrome and metal effects. In fact I did a tutorial way back then to show how I created a chrome look, and I know Gary has done at least one if not more chrome and/or metal surface tutorials.

    In the "Cricket" boxshot image I didn't use a single plug-in, although I have one now that I use in Photoshop which creates a boxshot effect in minutes rather than an hour as before. We now have stained glass plug-ins whereas the "Beetle on Stained Glass" image was hand Xara'd (and at the time there were a whole bunch of great 'stained glass' images from other people on this very forum). I love Gary's tutorials because he's been teaching people for 10 years or so how to use Xara's tools to create works they can be proud of without relying on plug-ins.

    Yes, there is an element of "blowing my own trumpet" in this post. I'm proud of much of the art I create, although it's not to everybody's taste. And, yes, I readily admit to using plug-ins where, not to use them, would take three, four, five times as long. But what I'm also trying to say is that if sometimes some of us sound a little overbearing about the overuse and over-abundance of plug-ins, you could cut us a little slack. Why? Because we were around when to creating certain effects took hours of patience and hard work, effects which now anybody can create with a plug-in. And so much of that hard work, patience and talent from years ago has gone out the window, unrecognised.

    Honestly, I want to be polite and well-meaning. But, sometimes it's not easy when faced with people who upload something to the gallery and it's obvious all they've done is taken some clipart or a photo and run it or parts of it through successive plug-ins. So if some of us display a certain lack of enthusiasm for that kind of art (yes, of course I accept it is art) then please, try to understand where we are coming from.

    I know I will get lambasted by some people for writing this but at least I've said my piece and got it off my chest. I promise to try my hardest to be polite, I'll try my hardest to be silent when it calls for it, but I won't lie. I will always encourage those people who are clearly interested in honing their creative talents, and whereas making images that are largely the result of plug-ins might be creative, it requires no talent.
    Last edited by Big Frank; 16 April 2009 at 01:24 PM.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
    They're going to kill me anyway and I'd love to die the way I lived:
    Avoiding Manual Labour.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Well, this reminds me the debate between painters and photographers. Which one requires talent? I think you are wrong - talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.

    It all depends on what author wants to demostrate when he shows his work on forum: the resulting image or the technique he used. In the first case it's the artistic value which counts and has to be commented, discussed e.t.c. In second - it's the level of mastering the tool. In first case it doesn't matter how the result was achieved, you shouldn't even ask, or if you ask, you shouldn't take it to account appreciating his work. In second case - the way he did it counts while the artistic value is irrelevant.

    Sometimes there are mixed posts when author showcases both art and technique used. In this case you have to balance both values.

    And finally, everyone is free to judge all posted on furums the way he prefers. So rising this topic is useless anyway.

    BTW I think this has to be moved to OT forum since it clearly has a direct relation to some other threads there.
    John.

  3. #3

    Info Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Frank, John - I've moved this thread to the Graphics Chat forum because it's more of a statement of position than discussion about Xara Plugins.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by covoxer View Post
    talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.
    My you could have read my mind John.

    the tools are the bike that you learn to ride
    the talent is having somewhere to go to, that you can see
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Frank if in your work you can only see plugins as useful where they save some time then you are really missing out on the creative possibilities in image making that they can offer. They can be far more useful than just as time saving 'shortcuts'. You need to explore the creative possibilities and develop some new skills.

    Regarding "talent" -- many people fail to separate it from 'skill'. Traditionally talent is something innate you are born with. The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.

    You could take almost any random person and sit them down in front of a computer for six months and have them complete every one of Gary's XaraXone tutorials. (Maybe it would take a year ). The result would be a skilled illustrator and talent would have nothing to do with it. They would have been trained. With enough skill the person can draw whatever is asked of them and do it well. Others who haven't developed the skills (but could) will think of the person as "so talented" or "gifted". The person themselves might well start thinking of themselves as "talented" or "gifted" and develop a ego swollen head.

    In our culture we tend to either want to feel superior or inferior to other people. The inferiority complex people will say "Oh I have no talent, I could never do that!" and avoid ever developing any skills. So ingrained can be this sense that they have "no talent" that they can't accept they could learn to do the same as the person they hold up as talented. It can be an excuse against ever even trying. Those who do develop some skills often fail to see that they are just that: skills. Instead they think of themselves as 'talented' and pat themselves on the back and stand a little more proud. They fool themselves into thinking they are 'special' or 'gifted'. Others saying things like "Wow, you are sooo talented!" reinforces that thinking that they were somehow 'gifted'. Being "talented" becomes an integral part of how they see themselves -- and sadly it leads to seeing others as lacking talent & inferior to themselves. It is ego-driven madness yet our culture pervasively supports the talent vs. non-talent distinction and it can be very wrapped up in how we see ourselves & others.

    Regards, Ross
    Last edited by Ross Macintosh; 10 April 2009 at 01:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Good post Ross
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Oh well. I'll take my ego-madness and try to keep it in check. But there's one thing I've read that I must object to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh View Post
    The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.
    I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life, Ross. The mere fact that someone can create images that are appealing, irrespective of the tools, means they have talent. Maybe not a talent for mastering certain skills, but a far more valuable talent - that of creating images that appeal.

    Maybe in saying that I have shot my own argument in the foot but that is the point of discussion.

    However, I will still stay away from the plug-ins forum because in the Xtreme forums you see people using whatever talent they have, however well they have honed their skills, putting their hard work and effort on display to be praised or critiqued by the rest of the members. In the plug-ins forum all you see is image after image created by pressing buttons and those few images that really do have creative merit are lost in the wave of "look what I did with this plugin".

    Ross, I thought your Vespa image was beautiful. And that's not me sucking up to you. It's me saying I think the image was beautiful. But your image was a composition, not the result of taking nothing adding a plugin and thinking you have created "something". You can add whatever you want to nothing and the end result will still be nothing.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
    They're going to kill me anyway and I'd love to die the way I lived:
    Avoiding Manual Labour.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    I just reread my posting above. I note that I'm not trying to insult anyone. Those who see themselves as 'talented' are free to do so and although I don't buy into the whole 'talent' thing I respect that others will have very different viewpoints. Objectively it really doesn't matter if people see this subject differently.

    Regards, Ross

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    isn't tracing over a photograph basically a 'plug-in'

    look at a photo to get the idea yes - but trace over it- gee how lazy can you get

    -------------------------------
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    My eleven year old son is told by his classmates & teachers that he is the best, most talented, artist in his class. It's been that way for years. Being admired in that way encourages him and keeps him interested. I have seen that getting to where he is today has taken years of very gradual skills development. It wasn't like he was born with talent - although he'd likely tell you he was. Told by others he has a 'gift' - he chooses to believe it.

    He was the same as practically every other kid but was supported and nurtured in his early creative efforts. He found positive reinforcement when he drew and seeking that reinforcement he drew more & more and with that came the gradual improvement in skills. For other kids that reinforcement comes when they improve their ballet, music or sports skills and they can likewise feel there is something special they are good at. Something that makes them better - more talented - in that area than other people.

    Like my son many of us grew up being told we were talented. It becomes part of who we are and how we see ourselves. That doesn't make it true. Sure there are some idiot savants who had a switch turned on instantly giving them skills that others never develop or would take many years to develop. Those are exceptional cases - most of us will never meet a true savant. The vast majority of those who think of themselves as talented or or who we admire/resent for their talent have taken years to develop their skills. Obviously some have an aptitude for learning certain kinds of skills more quickly but that too can be a function of how you learned to learn and generally how clever (IQ) you are -- it isn't talent.

    In my experience the self-taught are most likely to buy into the whole talent myth. There own skills may have developed so gradually they believe they always had the 'talent'. Those who are intensively trained are more likely to be aware that you can have no apparent talent in a particular pursuit but -if instructed well and work hard- you can quickly catch up to those who already deemed to have talent. When I went to architecture school I was shocked that many of my fellow classmates had arrived with zero artistic talent. Most had drawing skills limited to drawing stick-men! Nobody would ever have told these kids that they had artistic talent and none would have believed they could ever do what they eventually learned to do with instruction and skill development. By the time everyone of these people graduated they could draw very proficiently. I'm sure it surprised them but it didn't surprise the instructors who knew that it wasn't about talent - it is about skills. Composition, colour, emphasis, observation, etc. are all skills.

    My problem with the whole 'talent' myth is that in our culture we use it to put people up on pedestals or keep others (or ourselves) down. I have no problem with people being proud of their accomplishments. They should be. Saying you have no more natural talent than the next guy is not a put down. It does nothing to belittle someone elses accomplishments - in fact it serves to highlight that one's accomplishments are their own and not some 'gift'. Unfortunately most creative people, like those who participate here at the Talkgraphics forums, have so bought into the talent myth their whole lives, they are likely to not accept and be insulted by the idea that they have no talent -- even though they have zip!

    Regards, Ross

 

 

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