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  1. #1
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    Default Plug ins and the meaning of life

    There's been a lot of tittle tattle from both sides of the fence about the use of plugins recently, and it's an argument that has been going on for years. I know I have ruffled a few feather, unintentionally to be sure, but ruffled they have been, with my comments here and there. I just want to put them into context. Clearly I am posting this here because this is the plugins forum.

    Many years ago when the WWW was in its infancy I used Usenet to communicate with other artists and designers. There were no such things as web designers in those days, just designers. I remember I was using a very early version of Photoshop, 2 or 3, I can't remember. And there were virtually no plugins available. If you wanted to achieve an effect you did it yourself using Photoshop's far more limited set of tools than we have available to us today. But you did it and you were proud of what you had achieved.

    I remember that we would sometimes upload reduced-size images to one of the alt.graphic.photoshop newsgroups on our steam-driven 9600 hayes-compatible modems (14.4 if we were rich!). Quite out of the blue, drop shadows started to become popular. You couldn't do them in PSP or any other raster app that didn't have transparent, editable layers. Only in Photoshop could you create proper, anti-aliased drop shadows of varying size, blur and intensity, and even then there were people who had Photoshop but who could do them. No, I'm not joking.

    And one of the most common questions that came up in the graphics newsgroups (after "can somebody give me a serial number for Photoshop?") was "where can I get a plug-in for those drop shadows". Well there weren't any at the time, not for drop shadows. Many people just assumed that this "trick" had to be a plug-in. And it upset a lot of people (yes, me included) who had paid for their software and had "served their time" as it were.

    The situation is, of course, completely different nowadays. the world has moved on at a rapid pace and software continues to evolve to make some of the most demanding tasks possible with a plug-in. I myself have and do use plug-ins. In the "Taj Mahal" image below I used the Chrome plug-in. In the "Chocolate bar" image I used the XXP4 3D plug-in, and again in the "XARA out of bounds" image. But in the "Salt and Pepper Shakers" image which I did in 2001, there was no chrome plug-in or 3D filter used. because they didn't exist. We had to create our own chrome and metal effects. In fact I did a tutorial way back then to show how I created a chrome look, and I know Gary has done at least one if not more chrome and/or metal surface tutorials.

    In the "Cricket" boxshot image I didn't use a single plug-in, although I have one now that I use in Photoshop which creates a boxshot effect in minutes rather than an hour as before. We now have stained glass plug-ins whereas the "Beetle on Stained Glass" image was hand Xara'd (and at the time there were a whole bunch of great 'stained glass' images from other people on this very forum). I love Gary's tutorials because he's been teaching people for 10 years or so how to use Xara's tools to create works they can be proud of without relying on plug-ins.

    Yes, there is an element of "blowing my own trumpet" in this post. I'm proud of much of the art I create, although it's not to everybody's taste. And, yes, I readily admit to using plug-ins where, not to use them, would take three, four, five times as long. But what I'm also trying to say is that if sometimes some of us sound a little overbearing about the overuse and over-abundance of plug-ins, you could cut us a little slack. Why? Because we were around when to creating certain effects took hours of patience and hard work, effects which now anybody can create with a plug-in. And so much of that hard work, patience and talent from years ago has gone out the window, unrecognised.

    Honestly, I want to be polite and well-meaning. But, sometimes it's not easy when faced with people who upload something to the gallery and it's obvious all they've done is taken some clipart or a photo and run it or parts of it through successive plug-ins. So if some of us display a certain lack of enthusiasm for that kind of art (yes, of course I accept it is art) then please, try to understand where we are coming from.

    I know I will get lambasted by some people for writing this but at least I've said my piece and got it off my chest. I promise to try my hardest to be polite, I'll try my hardest to be silent when it calls for it, but I won't lie. I will always encourage those people who are clearly interested in honing their creative talents, and whereas making images that are largely the result of plug-ins might be creative, it requires no talent.
    Last edited by Big Frank; 16 April 2009 at 12:24 PM.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
    They're going to kill me anyway and I'd love to die the way I lived:
    Avoiding Manual Labour.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Well, this reminds me the debate between painters and photographers. Which one requires talent? I think you are wrong - talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.

    It all depends on what author wants to demostrate when he shows his work on forum: the resulting image or the technique he used. In the first case it's the artistic value which counts and has to be commented, discussed e.t.c. In second - it's the level of mastering the tool. In first case it doesn't matter how the result was achieved, you shouldn't even ask, or if you ask, you shouldn't take it to account appreciating his work. In second case - the way he did it counts while the artistic value is irrelevant.

    Sometimes there are mixed posts when author showcases both art and technique used. In this case you have to balance both values.

    And finally, everyone is free to judge all posted on furums the way he prefers. So rising this topic is useless anyway.

    BTW I think this has to be moved to OT forum since it clearly has a direct relation to some other threads there.
    John.

  3. #3

    Info Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Frank, John - I've moved this thread to the Graphics Chat forum because it's more of a statement of position than discussion about Xara Plugins.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by covoxer View Post
    talent is not required to master any tool no matter how hard it is to use, talent is required to "see" the picture you want to create. And if it is a real talent, the picture will be brathtaking. No matter how it is rendered - with oil paint or cameraphone.
    My you could have read my mind John.

    the tools are the bike that you learn to ride
    the talent is having somewhere to go to, that you can see
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Frank if in your work you can only see plugins as useful where they save some time then you are really missing out on the creative possibilities in image making that they can offer. They can be far more useful than just as time saving 'shortcuts'. You need to explore the creative possibilities and develop some new skills.

    Regarding "talent" -- many people fail to separate it from 'skill'. Traditionally talent is something innate you are born with. The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.

    You could take almost any random person and sit them down in front of a computer for six months and have them complete every one of Gary's XaraXone tutorials. (Maybe it would take a year ). The result would be a skilled illustrator and talent would have nothing to do with it. They would have been trained. With enough skill the person can draw whatever is asked of them and do it well. Others who haven't developed the skills (but could) will think of the person as "so talented" or "gifted". The person themselves might well start thinking of themselves as "talented" or "gifted" and develop a ego swollen head.

    In our culture we tend to either want to feel superior or inferior to other people. The inferiority complex people will say "Oh I have no talent, I could never do that!" and avoid ever developing any skills. So ingrained can be this sense that they have "no talent" that they can't accept they could learn to do the same as the person they hold up as talented. It can be an excuse against ever even trying. Those who do develop some skills often fail to see that they are just that: skills. Instead they think of themselves as 'talented' and pat themselves on the back and stand a little more proud. They fool themselves into thinking they are 'special' or 'gifted'. Others saying things like "Wow, you are sooo talented!" reinforces that thinking that they were somehow 'gifted'. Being "talented" becomes an integral part of how they see themselves -- and sadly it leads to seeing others as lacking talent & inferior to themselves. It is ego-driven madness yet our culture pervasively supports the talent vs. non-talent distinction and it can be very wrapped up in how we see ourselves & others.

    Regards, Ross
    Last edited by Ross Macintosh; 10 April 2009 at 12:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Good post Ross
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    I just reread my posting above. I note that I'm not trying to insult anyone. Those who see themselves as 'talented' are free to do so and although I don't buy into the whole 'talent' thing I respect that others will have very different viewpoints. Objectively it really doesn't matter if people see this subject differently.

    Regards, Ross

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Oh well. I'll take my ego-madness and try to keep it in check. But there's one thing I've read that I must object to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh View Post
    The fact that someone can create appealing images is not at all indicative that they have any talent -- It is indicative that they have developed skills.
    I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life, Ross. The mere fact that someone can create images that are appealing, irrespective of the tools, means they have talent. Maybe not a talent for mastering certain skills, but a far more valuable talent - that of creating images that appeal.

    Maybe in saying that I have shot my own argument in the foot but that is the point of discussion.

    However, I will still stay away from the plug-ins forum because in the Xtreme forums you see people using whatever talent they have, however well they have honed their skills, putting their hard work and effort on display to be praised or critiqued by the rest of the members. In the plug-ins forum all you see is image after image created by pressing buttons and those few images that really do have creative merit are lost in the wave of "look what I did with this plugin".

    Ross, I thought your Vespa image was beautiful. And that's not me sucking up to you. It's me saying I think the image was beautiful. But your image was a composition, not the result of taking nothing adding a plugin and thinking you have created "something". You can add whatever you want to nothing and the end result will still be nothing.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
    They're going to kill me anyway and I'd love to die the way I lived:
    Avoiding Manual Labour.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frank View Post
    it's obvious all they've done is taken some clipart or a photo and run it or parts of it through successive plug-ins. So if some of us display a certain lack of enthusiasm for that kind of art (yes, of course I accept it is art) then please, try to understand where we are coming from.
    I hear you...
    The other side of the coin of this debate is:
    Try spending 50-100 hours on a manual piece and then to have someone very experienced say... thats obviously an auto trace....

    Thats the flip side of this whole plug-in/advanced function debate...
    There are causalities out there that have never used fancy plug-ins and auto functions ETC and never will....but will none the less suffer because people make off the cuff un-qualified assumptions ETC...

    It is a shame in many ways as each new plug-in effect changes the rules of the game... moving the goal posts much wider apart...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Plug ins and the meaning of life

    Quote Originally Posted by morphonius_821 View Post
    Try spending 50-100 hours on a manual piece and then to have someone very experienced say... thats obviously an auto trace....
    Been there, got the t-shirt. Humbug, humbug, humbug. For an experienced user to say that smells very much of sour grapes. So let them say it (again), I'm not worried, and nor is Javier, I think, after his magnificant Ninja drawing.
    If someone tried to make me dig my own grave I would say No.
    They're going to kill me anyway and I'd love to die the way I lived:
    Avoiding Manual Labour.

 

 

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