Easily implemented improvement?

[Wreckless Eric]

Thanks covoxer for your explanation.
As a professional web developer I have been using Xara for many years, drawing websites, slicing up the images and then editing the code afterwards. Though a bit laborious, the results were great.
When CSS came and tables were 'out', I forced myself to learn these new techniques. I still used Xara for design and slicing, but threw away the generated table structures. It took me a while to find out that a well organised site based on CSS is actually very maintenance friendly. It allows me to please my customers at low costs. It is also very fast in downloading, as optimised code is very "lean".

WD is certainly a tool that brings me an improvement as it helps to generate a beautiful website very fast. I will have to find out how to use WD in an optimal setting, as I think that being able to make fast changes to websites later on will remain my prime concern. Yes, I also earn my money by maintaining ever growing websites, but I still think that WD will bring me something more.

As a web developer I understand that the market positioning of WD is not fully suitable for my kind, but still it would help many people if the code generated would be optimised for speed and readability.

I think that WD is a remarkable achievement and that WD is indeed filling a gap in the world of web designers. It will serve many people in generating pages that they could not build before, and this is great.
I will certainly use it and I'm looking forward to any improvements. So keep on working on this product as I'm looking forward to kicking out my other web editors. Notepad should be the only accompanying tool, used for entering text!

[richinri]

Yes, you are wrong. And so, I have to correct you.
Here it is:

Not so fast. hehe That is a PARTIAL implementation of the title tag. If one uses the pop up layer choice, the title attribute is striped from the code. Title tags in elements (not page titles) are used to help index the page ALL the time. I would again hope that Xara changes this so the TITLE attribute is used as an attribute, especially in a program like XWD that, many times, removes text from indexing with grouping. This makes the ALT and TITLE tag even more important for SEO.

[richinri]

Yes, code matters. Probably that's why we do our best to make WD generated code fully compliant. But we can't forbid users to break it, because there'll be no way for extensions, as you understand.
So what's your point here? We were talking about code readability e.t.c. and here you are switching to criticising unexperienced users... I don't get it.

NO ONE said Xara should FORBID people to break code and NO ONE is criticizing inexperienced users. You are sounding like Xara wants their program looked at like it is a kids toy - not to be taken seriously. I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT.
If my point is that any web designer needs to be at least partially aware of some coding issues to maximize the website they are designing with XWD, why does that bother you?
These forums also are to flush out issues for further development and to assist those learning. You sound resistant to learning something you don't want to learn. You are in a web designer forum - these are the issues discussed in web designer forums.

[ss-kalm]

....You don't need, don't like and will not look at the HTML code.............that you're also trying to accept the standpoint and needs of others the same way as others are accepting your point of view. It's only fair.

Actually Remi, your making an assumption that isn't true ... I started developing websites in 1995 by writing the "code" out in windows notepad, and have grown from there. I am quite comfortable "slinging code" (even if a little behind the times these days).

The point that I am trying to get over is that for simple sites (and I feel the need to stress simple, because I feel that is where XWD is targeted and that is where I think Xara is aiming) that you really don't need to see the code.

However I appreciate that for a more complex site then you do need the code. I would not dream of doing one of my larger sites (100+ pages) in XWD as I feel they would probably choke. The thing is, I don't think that that is Xara's target demographic for XWD and I am trying to respond accordingly. I fully understand and to some extent agree with your point of view!

You can't have a meaningful discussion if everyone agrees. Sometimes, by taking a contrary stance, you can learn something from the responses, and I am learning a lot on these forums. I really don't mean to antagonise, I'm just saying what I feel. I apologise if I have caused offence.

[pauland]

We're all grown-ups here. Do we really need colour coded text and capitals to try and get a point across? I don't think so.

I suspect the core demographics for XWD is not a web designer who "needs to be at least partially aware of some coding issues to maximize the website they are designing with XWD". Most XWD users are just very pleased they can develop a website at all let alone fuss over intricasies of HTML tags.

Give Xara and covoxer a break. They've done an amazing job. It doesn't have to be perfect (for a first release, anyway.. ;-) ).

[Scotty]

Hi,
I agree with pauland, let the 'coders' code if they want, and lel web designer code away till hes/her hearts content. Xara has done a great job with designer for first realease!!!
I went to the w3c website and had a look at the recommendations before them...if coders want to sift through all that and then work in 'notepad' have fun!!
I would imagine the coders stick with the html4.01 recommendations and haven't realy examined the new stuff.
I wouldn't want too!!
The big companies can pay the large amount they pay for some one to do that.
Jim

[remi]

I would imagine the coders stick with the html4.01 recommendations and haven't realy examined the new stuff.

I agree with Paul, we are not in the Kindergarten here. So, what was such a comment good for?

[richinri]

I don't think there is a person here that doesn't think XWD is a great program. But this "it is just for small people, those that are doing their first site etc" thinking to me is nonsense.
Once one gets past enjoying the toys, I see a program that, if one applies good thought, knowledge and planning, is probably a turning point in web design.
Xara's "the program is simple and fun but don't be fooled by that" strategy is one I have enjoyed. I still am amazed with what can be done with Xara Pro.
Did Xara decide to come out with a toy for kids and newbies to play with? If they did, they are a decade too late - that is what was done years ago when internet programming was the wild west of technology. The web has matured too much for those kinds of toys and search engines are getting more and more sophisticated in ignoring bad code and rewarding good code.
So for those that think XWD is great...I agree. But to those that add "for not really serious web designers or for someone just doing their first site" I say, clearly I see something you do not. This program not only is great - there is HUGE potential here to set a new standard for web design software. So get used to people like me and watch where XWD goes.

[pauland]

So get used to people like me

I'd rather not. Xara has done very well and will continue to do so. There are a lot of talented people here on talkgraphics that generally manage to get on without patronising each other or making huge assumptions about knowing what nobody else knows.

Talkgraphics is a place where make their point and get on without repeating it ad nauseum.

[covoxer]

If my point is that .......... why does that bother you?

Indeed.