Verbose coding... anyway to change that Xara?

[Mark (theKeeper)]

Hi guys... been ions since i've been able to visit forums again. Nice to be back.

First i'd like to congratulate Xara on a spectacular new program. I think this one will be an instant hit across the board. It's just amazing what one can do with an app like this. And with little to no experience.

Well done folks, bravo.


After toying with the program and creating a few sites... i've come to notice that XWD uses only absolute positioning for its output; for EVERY INDIVIDUAL LINE of text. And although this is a great way to ensure the output looks exACTly as it does in the program... it's not always the desired or practical method for coding a page.

The only workaround i have found is to create a placeholder and drop your own css divs and text into that. That, will render the text in a normal 'square block', that can then be justified AND scaled (if the user so chooses).

When scaling the standard text output from XWD, the text will either fly off the right side of your layout (and disappear because of the css clipping being used), crumble into a clump somewhere within its containing div, or break apart the container its in and become repositioned.

These are not desirable effects, and if XWD is to maintain its conformity to Web standards (xml/css/html) then it needs to allow the user to choose how to code their text blocks. Preferably using CSS. It won't help 100%, but it'll be of great help to those not utilizing the "text wrapping to a shape" feature (which is the only time its really needed IMO).

Another issue with hard coding text lines (absolute positioning) is that if i want to go in a tweak the code or edit it further, it's VERY confusing to have to sift through all of those div tags on EVERY line of text in a text block. I broke one of my pages real bad trying to do that. I got it sorted though after awhile but only because i have a lot of experience writing html. Anyone of lesser experience would be lost completely.

So my query is... is this an issue that might get addressed down the road? Or is there a solution to it right now that we're unaware of?

Thank you again Xara gang for this excellent addition to your already potent arsenal.

Thanks for listening.
Mark...

[Charles Moir]

Yes we position every single items with pixel accuracy - including every single line. It's the only way to ensure accurate WYSIWYG and consistency across all browsers.

There is no zoom problem if you use modern browsers (IE7+, Firefox, Opera) as they use full page zoom - which is much better all around anyway - then everything scales in proportion like normal zoom (like Xara zoom) so you can zoom in on graphics and photos etc - the page layout is maintained.

The last two browsers to do the old 'text resize' instead of zoom, Safari and Chrome, are adding this feature soon.

We do confirm to web standards - the pages pass the W3C validator, which is more than an be said for most websites. Supporting features such as CSS, and to some extent text blocks, would break the WYSIWYG nature of Web Designer, which is it's main benefit and reason it works the way it does.

We do not expect users to see the HTML let alone 'tweak it' as you say. Any more than you might 'tweak' your PDF file by editing the text of the actual file. It's a archaic, backward and ultimately doomed technical left over from the early days of the web (just as editing PDF files is - a long time ago people did have to edit their PDF files by hand and had to use embedded tags for DTP layout - until decent WYSIWYG software came along to make it unnecessary). So our goals are to make it unnecessary to ever have to do anything with the HTML, and to create a product that's as WYSIWYG, as simple, and with a much design freedom as modern DTP software, except that it creates web pages.

There are a lots of way you can tweak the HTML, and we're not stopping you doing that, (John has shown lots of nice little script changes, for those that are into it) but we wouldn't do things that compromised the simple WYSIWYG nature of the product.

But we are continuing to look into ways in which we can offer text blocks in an accurate WYSIWYG way, as well as style support for future versions.

[Mark (theKeeper)]

Hey thanks for the quick reply Charles i appreciate your time.

First i'd just like to make it clear that my intent is/was not to diminish or put down in any way the excellent functionality of XWD. I think the program is just fine as-is. As i stated above, i love the program and think it'll be a smash success across the board once word gets out on a larger scale.

"We do confirm to web standards - the pages pass the W3C validator, which is more than an be said for most websites."

Yes, i'm aware of that, i tested them myself also. And the Xara team should be very proud of their success in tackling this ever-changing hurdle. Hats off to them.

To reply to your comments about using a 'modern' browser Charles, i have all of the most modern browsers being used except for the Mac platform. I'm aware of the "full zoom" function they now have. However, it must be noted too that this 'option' is fully customizable by the user. So certain folks may not wish to scale images AND text. In certain designs this can cause a 'panning' effect within the viewable browser window; which can be cumbersome to deal with.

But i understand that is a small percentage of users that will have to deal with that situation. And that that alone does not warrant the addition of new functionality to the program.

Anyway, this is turning into a ramble. My query was simply to find out if this was "the final take" on this part of the program. I needed to know that so that i could go ahead and dig in using my own workaround(s).

I appreciate your time Charles, thank you very much.

Mark...

[covoxer]

Just 2 cents from me. This is not a final take, this is a first take actually.

[StevenWWinters]

This is not a final take, this is a first take actually.

That's good news John!

Make it an option to have text blocks be true WYSIWYG or to leave them as blocks of text (with optional FULL justify, of course) :-)

[Mark (theKeeper)]

Excellent news John, thank you for the notice.

I have been served. )>

Mark...