[Suggestion] Implementing H1 Headings without coding

[V12CatMan]

If there is enough interest I am willing to conduct an experiment. Currently two websites I am responsible for are #1 and #2 on Google for their brand name "Tower Forge" (out of 2.5 million other pages). Both use a H1 tag containing that key phrase. If I change the #1 site to use paragraph tags then that may (possibly by changing positions) shed some light on the subject.

Are there any experts here that could give me an idea as to how long it will take to have an effect (if any) and more importantly how long to recover as this is a commercial site that provides my main income.

Drwyd

Nice offer - but I don't think that would be meaningful. The words "Tower Forge" are in the Title and also feature in numerous other places on the pages including p tags - probably the precise reason they get #1 and #2 on the hit list - # of repetitions. I would not attribute that in any way to the existence of h1 tags. Also I suspect "Tower Forge" is not a highly searched general term (unlike say "wysiwyg web development") - after all the 6th item down in the Google UK page is Pigeon Forge TN - not exactly a good appropriate hit i.e. the competition is not great for "Tower Forge". When you have something that unique that people don't generally search for, you can be pretty confident of hits.

In fact my exercise has already determined/proven that h1 tags are unnecessary as the sole source of SE hits (I do not have any).

As an aside - notice the importance of the meta tag description as each hit is to a separate page and uses the meta tag description to entice people to select the link.

Unfortunately this is not algebra and you can only make sure that your page content is tailored to as many possible search terms in as many ways as possible - but clearly h1 etc. is not one to get overly excited about if the terms are adequately referenced and highlighted elsewhere.

I think the prime focus of the discussion now is their value from a wysiwyg development perspective.

[Soquili]

I will be banned for wanting to assist more seasoned developers better use XWD and expand it's use in the marketplace? I will be banned for saying to people, "this feature isn't available now but may be in the future" instead of NO?
Every executive in Xara will get my posts in their hands within days of my banning. We will see if they think what I am doing is wrong.

Richinri it is not what you have to say but how you say it and how often. You make your posts about <h> tags in almost every thread.

Your methodology of posting is the issue rather than what you are saying. Your actions work against you. You come off as being a cocky young fighter that wants a confrontation at every turn.

To give you a cooling off period I will impose a 5 day suspension of your membership beginning immediately.

[Drwyd]

@V12CatMan

I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor and I appreciate your input as it adds more data but that does not change the focus of the experiment. I saw here an opportunity given by 2 websites with very similar SEO targets, both using H1 tags, that could be used to test a theory. If the only thing changed is the switch from heading tags to paragraph tags and the position drops 3 pages then that would be pretty compelling. It may be that the weight given by Google to heading tags is so slight that nothing will happen. Either way we will have learnt something.

BTW:-
“Results 1 - 10 of about 126,000 for IBM 4690”
"Results 1 - 10 of about 338,000 for wysiwyg web development "
“Results 1 - 10 of about 359,000 for xara web designer”
“Results 1 - 10 of about 2,560,000 for tower forge”

Drwyd

P.S. I have made the change. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[V12CatMan]

@V12CatMan

I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor and I appreciate your input as it adds more data but that does not change the focus of the experiment. I saw here an opportunity given by 2 websites with very similar SEO targets, both using H1 tags, that could be used to test a theory. If the only thing changed is the switch from heading tags to paragraph tags and the position drops 3 pages then that would be pretty compelling. It may be that the weight given by Google to heading tags is so slight that nothing will happen. Either way we will have learnt something.

BTW:-
“Results 1 - 10 of about 126,000 for IBM 4690”
"Results 1 - 10 of about 338,000 for wysiwyg web development "
“Results 1 - 10 of about 359,000 for xara web designer”
“Results 1 - 10 of about 2,560,000 for tower forge”

Drwyd

P.S. I have made the change. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

"I agree that keywords in the title tag are probably the strongest factor" No, No - the point is - They may be a factor and certainly provide verbiage to the search engine - once the engine decides to rank the page - as evidenced by what Google UK quotes on their hits for Tower Forge. Conclusions that they caused/played a major role in the "hit" are unfounded. In your case "Tower Forge" is all over the HTML source on the page. After about 6-7 hits nothing else even resembles Tower Forge. SEO logic is complicated for sure.

Good Luck with your experiment. As the existing pages could be cached for years I'll check back with you next time Haley's Comet passes by to read your "algebraic" conclusions. While my exercise definitively proves that Google and Yahoo can definitely rank a page with no h1 tags, I don't understand your attempt to show that dropping an h1 tag will get the page to be unranked - maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway - Good Luck.

I really don't know what you're suggesting regarding the other stats.

[RTK]

For those who need to "see to believe"

[link removed as requested]

Go to Google and type in the following:

*IBM*4690*File*Integrity*Monitoring (7th hit on 1st page)

Change the *s to spaces

PS I was quite pleasantly surprised myself that some elementary changes could yield such good results.

Well, considering that "IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring" as a phrase only exists on TWO out of BILLIONS of web pages...

Also

Considering that the words- IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring -with no relation to what the product is about -- Google starts getting "desperate" to find things to "show the searcher" already on page 5, with an article about "organic contaminants in petroleum products", and then already goes completely "nuts" with a PDF on a Korean site about "truck capacity" on page 10...

It clearly shows that it's not a very competitive term.

Doing ANYTHING would have done the trick improving things for you.

(Continued later)

As a goofy experiment, I wrote a nonsense article on IBM 4690 File Integrity Monitoring ((took me about 15 minutes (in-between giggles)) that includes helping my 10-year-old bake a bunt cake.) After getting back home after our cake-party -- I activated the post (here: http://www.askdog.com/2009/03/29/ibm...g-good-or-not/) and pinged my blog services (1 minute)... and 40 minute later -- I was number number 1 on Google in Canada, and 15 in Google Australia (now number 1...), and 4 in Google Sweden (now number 1...) for your search term.

Sure, things will fluctuate (come and go until things settle)... but I wasn't even trying... I didn't even use any incoming links. Point being -- if even a humour advice site can slay a tech site in their "niche" without even trying -- it sure as (b)ell doesn’t involve H(n) tags or Xara WD coding.

As for this whole (thread) discussion -- I really don't care when it comes to purity of code. All I know is:

(1) Covoxer and the XWD crew know what they are doing. (It might not be to everyone's liking -- then again, what is?)

(2) This is a Xara WD forum not a half-baked SEO forum.

My very tired 2 cents Canadian.

Risto

[RTK]

Just to clarify "nonsense article" = "a bit more than a Lorem Impsum". I know nothing, about the quality and purpose of the actual product. Please look at is a silly word-spew.

My nonsense has nothing to do with V12CatMan or the IBM product. It's just some ON-topic silliness.

Risto

[pauland]

Just a small contribution - probably of little value.

A few days ago I mentioned I'd done a single page using XWD for a client (http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthre...=36835&page=10) - they are very pleased with it.

Despite this page not having any real links to it besides this one: http://www.collardmanson.co.uk/profi...er_profile.htm from the other thread, it's now been picked up by google!

I'm assuming a spider has done some walking. Now, the page isn't acheiving a wonderful #1 page rank unless you get specific enough, but that said, I was surprised.

Make of it what you will (or will not).

Paul

[remi]

@all: Maybe you should study the Wikipedia Article about well known SEO contests, instead of trying to start a own SEO contest here at TG.

Remi

[Drwyd]

For my part it is an experiment, not a contest, in order to find a solution to the H1 debate for myself and others.

V12CatMan "While my exercise definitively proves that Google and Yahoo can definitely rank a page with no h1 tags"

Agreed, I am not disputing this.

"I don't understand your attempt to show that dropping an h1 tag will get the page to be unranked"

I am not trying to do that. I am trying to find out "IF" a H1 tag is a factor. All I am trying to "SHOW" is its actual value for ranking, if any, and settle this debate. It may prove to be a fruitless experiment but if you don't try you don't learn.

Drwyd

[Drwyd]

@Risto Excellent article.