The WD HTML structure furore

[RTK]

I don't know John (covoxer)... However, I have read ALL of his posts here at TG... How about a reality check please? The man is not stupid, ok? It should be obvious if you read his posts... He knew/knows exactly what he's doing.

The code generated by Xara WD is not there to mess with some code purists', visually impaired's or know-it-all's head. IT IS merely the result when you make it possible for ANYONE (even your grandma) to create a nice looking website. PERIOD.

I just don't get the code whining... It is what it is -- the average individual will see the end result with all the nice 'huffen-puff' ™. It looks good = smiles all-around for the concerned parties.

As for the concern of the visually impaired... Yes, optimally you want everyone to see your artwork and read your writing but it's never going to happen -- you can take that one to the bank. No matter what legislation, people will do what THEY CAN DO.

Heck, I'm supposed to keep my stairs clean for the mailman... I don't always do that on all the days in January and February, so I lose out on some mail... However, I would TRY to look for solutions if I knew that 100% clean stairs helped me feed my kids. It's a choice I make... Ok, so the mailman hates me -- I'll live with it.

People are struggling and getting ripped off every day when it comes to getting small and nice-looking websites designed and online. Xara XD makes it possible for everyone to get things done for an insignificant amount of money. Oh, the horror!

Personally, I like CMS solutions as my websites have hundreds/thousands of web pages; to clear things up a bit (I'm not a "fan boy"). Instead of whining about "code"... How about just whining about (the customary...) things that don't work in terms of WYSIWYG implementation? THAT can be worked on...

Xara WD is a real solution for many people. It might not be the right for you or me... Well, that's just how it is, isn't it? So, some of us have to make do with other solutions.

Give Xara and John some credit, please! Why not focus the whining about execution? It's much more constructive (and fun to lurk and read about).

My two (ignorant) 2 cents worth.

Risto

[Ross Macintosh]

It seems to me that most people with experience in coding (html or whatever) have absorbed the idea that there is virtue in clean, elegant, code. They take efforts to achieve that elegance and take tremendous pride in achieving it. To them, and like-minded people, the elegance of their coding reflects on their professionalism and level of skill.

Along comes Xara-WD with a true WYSIWYG approach that makes more intuitive the creation of graphically complex web pages that are very cross-browser compliant. Great - No? Well, it's great for most people who want to create graphically complex web pages that are very cross-browser compliant. Also great for people who just seek a relatively simple tool for creating their not-so-complex web designs.

As I understand it the program achieves its WYSIWYG results by using code tags to precisely locate each line of text, image etc. It is an established approach that is "compliant" with standards but one which some experienced coders have a distaste for. To them the underlying html of the generated pages isn't clean and elegant enough, and they would be embarrassed to submit it for peer review. They feel the code would reflect poorly on their professionalism. Importantly, it isn't that the code is wrong - it just doesn't reflect the hand-coder's art of trying to distill an elegant simplicity in how their code is written. The truth is that without utilizing the same approaches Xara-WD takes in regard to code, those hand-coders would be relatively hard-pressed to achieve graphically complex designs with the same cross-browser fidelity. Those that could, would have to be very skilled, and would likely have a work flow considerably longer than what the designer who adopts Xara-WD will have.

It reminds me of the early days when CorelDraw & Xara came on the market. The established programs for graphic design were Illustrator / Photoshop on the Mac platform. To those 'Pros' using CorelDraw or Xara was rejected even when the upstarts were easier to use, faster, and offered better features. There were users who said f**k the status quo and went with CorelDraw and Xara for their commercial work. In their work flow they saw the benefits. Today the situation and opportunities are similar. The arrival of Xara-WD gives web designers & wannabes an opportunity to discover the work flow improvements Xara-WD offers and leave those happy with their Dreamweaver etc. to their own path.

Thanks Xara for developing an effective WYSIWYG web design tool.

Regards, Ross

[remi]

@Ross:
A fair and objective summary.

@Ron (hexen53):
The main problem is, a critical debate about the lack of semantically meaningful HTML and proper use of CSS within Websites exported from Xara Webdesigner doesn't make sense, as long as new users are so enthusiastic about the new Xara Web Designer and are seeing criticisms as an attack. If I understand it right, even now some members are starting to see "dark goals" behind our criticism. Such a misrepresentation would be not fair, but unfortunately, this is a normal reaction you can see very often.

@Risto:
I agree with you, that John (covoxer) has given some answers and NOBODY has said the he is stupid, OK?!
It's also more than understandable that some (not all) of his statements are to oppose against our review of his own work (the HTML export filter), instead of accepting our arguments. I have no problems with that, but as I said before, I know that there are better ways in order to reach the goal. It needs some time to develop other approaches and you can be sure that Xara will hear some compliments (not only from my side), whenever Xara Web Designer will be there.

@Bob (Soquili):
I agree with you, that we should give Xara a little time to sell some licenses. Maybe we're able to start another discussion in 6-12 months about the generated HTML code. This should not be a real problem, because the problems with the HTML code will not go away within this timeframe (and maybe in the meantime there will be more insight).

If we're trying to discuss these facts further on, than I'm sure that the knowledged (X)HTML/CSS experts will not only be held responsible for

• a bad mood of other members, but also for
• the whole business success of Xara Ltd. and maybe
• the worldwide business crisis and furthermore
• the global warming during the last 100 years (which is surely just the result of our increased discussion activity).

In the meantime everyone should make his own experiences.

Remi