Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

[remi]

Hi Bill,

the problem is with the HTML code, Xara Web Designer produces. I'm sure you will see a lot of complaints over the next weeks because of that, after the first euphoria has ended. We're trying to explain John (covoxer) and Charles, that they should not ignore the well known ideas behind semantic HTML and Web accessibility.

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@covoxer:

The first one is a plain unformatted text which you can easily insert into placeholder. You don't need to use wysiwyg tools to enter unformatted text.

The point is, you shouldn't export such a div tag soup like the current one for the users of your software. You're able to optimize this within your HTML export filter. Furthermore Xara Web Designer customers shouldn't need to use "placeholders", in order to get simple HTML.

First one will look unpredictably in a browser, second one will look exactly how you want it too.
So what's the point of using first one if it has no advantages from the designers point of view?

Why do you think your absolute positioned HTML is the only way to let it look exactly how I want it in different browsers? I say, please try it harder the next time and try to offer the possibilty to export semantically correct markup of content. Try to avoid the absolute position and aggregate all the same styles in a stylesheet, instead of repeating them in the HTML markup.

Remi

[Soquili]

Hi Remi,

So you are saying you are wanting to force Xara to change the purpose of the program as you see it and/or how the html code is created? Are you trying to save Xara from receiving complaints as you mentioned?

Is Web Designer the only program available that creates html code that you find as being inadaquate or poorly formatted?

I'm just trying to see both sides here. I know that it is often a source of much discussion when a new approach to any undertaking is put forth.

So far I am not fully understanding why Web Designer should support direct editing of html, at least not at this point in time. As the program is used and further feedback from a wider audience is received things may change and they may not. There are a large number of people creating websites without any knowledge of html coding and they prefer it that way. Web Designer is targeting that demographic.

[remi]

I would love to see, that Xara Web Designer would produce better HTML, so that I'm also able to use it. I see no way to offer such a code to my customers.

And we are not talking about the need to editing HTML code within Xara Web Designer. Instead, the HTML Export filter should export such semantically meaningful HTML code straight ahead.

Remi

[Hexen53]

I do not see where Xara advertised the program as being a replacement for HTML editors or code formatter or anything other than a graphics design tool for web pages.

For what is advertised the program does the work very well.

Are you lobbying to have Xara change the purpose for the program?

Do you want it to replace any other tools you already use?

I'm just curious as to why so much effort and posting is being put forth.

The purpose of XWD as you state is to create web pages - web pages are HTML!

XWD is ploughing its own furrow. In doing so it is abandoning the standard vocabulary of HTML tags.

Whether people like it or not, structure is important. How many times have you decided to create a random converstation, novel or web page?

When you build a website there may be a legal requirement for it to conform to disability accessibilty standards. I am not sure that XWD does meet standards and I don't know what testing regime they went through. I have given links to various related texts.

As for the tools I use. I have used Dreamweaver and NOF but do most of my pages in Notetab and have recently bought Expression Web 2. Usually I try to use CSS menus, structured html and external css (usually I fail).

I had hoped that XWD would be the web equivalent of XP4 (my absolute all-time favourite program). Maybe there will be a version that offers greater control for standards - a pro version that stops you from being creative but keeps you compliant!

Ron

[w00dy]

I'm no rocket scientist, I get by in HTML when I have to BUT what I am is someone who is a USER... I've no real interest in coding, people out there that are a lot brighter than me and have the time and inclination to do coding can do that. From my perspective, the tool that gets me the job done in the most effective way and in the least time is what I want.

It's perhaps the wrong place to talk about competitor's products but once I escaped the straight jacket of Frontpage 98, I progressed via Namo, which has been mentioned earlier today, to an HTML editor, which didn't mess the code up but along the way, I also became able to incorporate forms, video, audio and databases by using tools that did the job for me. Xara X1 allowed me to produce decent graphics, XWS, which didn't even make me break sweat in getting used to it, will afford very good looking, relatively small scale websites, literally in a matter of days, if not hours. What more could I ask for?

As I said in another post, XWD's output may not be for the purist... I think "death by <div>'s" was the term that I used but as Charles has said, this makes very little impact on the size of the code and it works. If you look at XWD, the developers are not targeting multi-million dollar corporations with this product... those customers will happily pay thousands of dollars for their websites ... but what there is out there is hundreds of thousands of customers who want a "pretty website" consisting of a couple of dozen pages... that surely is XWD's niche.

Perhaps we should also not lose site of the fact this is release 5.0.0, things will evolve and more functionality will doubtless be introduced.

[Soquili]

Hi Remi and Hexen,

I can understand your wanting to point out what you perceive as deficiencies in the program in order to help make it better. There are also many people that have been wanting a program exactly as Web Designer.

Would it not be better to allow Web Designer to either expire or progress on it's own? There is an obvious market for the product and a large number of people already creating websites without knowledge of html using other products. As further updates are made to the program you may see some or all of your suggestions eventually incorporated, or not as the majority of buyers dictate.

I do not mean to interrupt the posting. I simply do not see how it will make any changes in the short term. Nor was I sure what the desired end result was for all the posting.

[remi]

I think, we will see much more discussions about this and on the other side it's good to know, that John (covoxer) is thinking about an alternative export mode (as discussed here). Perhaps we will see such a progress with the next release (maybe in 6-12 months?).

Remi

[Hexen53]

I'm no rocket scientist, I get by in HTML when I have to BUT what I am is someone who is a USER... I've no real interest in coding, people out there that are a lot brighter than me and have the time and inclination to do coding can do that. From my perspective, the tool that gets me the job done in the most effective way and in the least time is what I want.

The issue is not whether you have an interest in coding but whether the software you use is interested in producing the best code form your designs.

Ron

[ss-kalm]

The purpose of XWD as you state is to create web pages - web pages are HTML!

Not true ..... Historically web pages have been created with HTML, as there was no other options. Anything that produces output that can be used as a web page is still a web page, no matter how it does it. What Xara WD produces is W3C compliant code. It may not be the prettiest, but the point is that there should never be a need to look at it. A lot of people are ecstatic about not needing to "sling the code" and get just what they want.

As was stated earlier, you don't have to know how a car runs to drive, likewise there is no "requirement" to be able to code to produce a web page.

If you really need to use the code, use a different editor.

XWD seems to do just what it's creators intended it to do ... why is that a problem.

[cursor]

If an artistic painter, do I care about the chemical composition of (or specific method for creating) the pigment? Or, do I just creatively paint?

If an anthropologist writing a techincal paper, do I care about the embedded formatting tags in Microsoft Word, as I'm making my cultural arguments?

As a web designer (or a simple wanna-be-anything-enthusiast) do I care about the historical methods of HTML code structure? Or, do I graphically and textually create the most responsible argument that will get my point across?

It's all about representative expression. Right?

Smartly implemented particular features (like bullets, or text styles) will be implemented within reasonable time, no doubt. I'm anxious, but patient (and extemely excited) about future prospects.