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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    16

    Default Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    Okay I can see that XWD can design some interesting web pages and can do things that other web design progs can't but...

    So far as I can see there is no easy way to insert basic HTML - paragraphs <p>, headings <h1>, <h2> etc and where are the bulleted lists <ul> and <ol>?

    Aside from the obvious use of bulleted lists they are also a means of structuring navigation menus. XWD is the only web tool I have seen that does not have the familiar toolbar button to add a bulleted list.

    Headings are used to give levels of importance to the text and should, if done properly, give the document a structure. When I look at the code for any of the template pages, all the text is split into DIVs - not headings, sentences or paragraphs, just snippets of text. When a human looks at that web page the structure is obvious but for Google and screen readers there is nothing in the HTML to indicate the structure of the document!

    What about tables? Okay they get bad press but that is because they have been misused for years, as a method of structuring and designing a web page rather than for their original purpose of providing a means to layout tabular data. Tables have tags to denote titles and headings, giving structure and meaning to tabular content - how is this to be achieved correctly in XWD

    It is possible to use placeholders to insert HTML but it seems strange that it is easier to insert rotated text in a fancy box and see the end result as you edit than it is to insert a simple bulleted list or heading that has to be previewed to see the end result.

    It is considered good practice to keep the formatting of a document separate from the document content. CSS should be in an external style sheet and inline styles should be avoided.

    XWD pages use an external style sheet but then adds a ton of inline styles for positioning and setting fonts and fixed font sizes. There are accessibility issues with the use of fixed font sizes. The HTML is not easy to read and harks back to the bad old days of Frontpage.

    Sorry for this long rant. I love Xara stuff AND I have bought XWD but I am concerned about the non-standard method of coding the web pages.

    Cheers

    Ron
    IP

  2. #2

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    I must admit, from a coders viewpoint it does look complicated if you want to tweak it with dhtml / javascript and other things. I know you can use placeholders but sometimes behind-the-scenes coding is a must.
    IP

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
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    Harwich, Essex, England
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    21,895

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    Hi Ron,

    Where's the HTML and where's the structure?
    I'm not on a crusade here but just want to make the point there's more than one way to skin a cat. You can can go from John Rayner (who's missing in action lately) who's a pure text based html coder, to users of Dreamweaver which I suppose you could loosely call a WYSIWYG editor to users of Flash (includes me) which never in a month of Sundays could create editable html or structure, nor needs too.

    With XWD you set out your web site designs in a graphical way, and export from there. If there's an error, you change the graphical layout (in the main) and reexport. Check, check, etc.

    No you can't edit as say you could a DW export, but DW doesn't give you the graphical control (without complicated menu options) that XWD offers.

    It's more horses for courses and does it deliver on the day. ;-)
    Last edited by Egg Bramhill; 05 March 2009 at 02:47 AM.
    Egg

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    IP

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Red Boiling Springs TN USA
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    19,208

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    For anyone that has a need to work with the code, export to website from Web Designer. Then use your favorite text/code editor, whether notepad, Dreamweaver, Expression Web, etc.

    Web Designer was written more for those people that do not want or have a need to edit the code.
    Soquili
    a.k.a. Bill Taylor
    Bill is no longer with us. He died on 10 Dec 2012. We remember him always.
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    IP

  5. #5

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    While not an experienced HTML coder, I can definitely see advantages to inclution of web-standard text-manipulation methods in xWB (which I've now purchased). Consider, as a single point of argument, the ability to increase/decrease text size of a website, based on user preference. Clicking an "A+" or an "A-" tool to manipulate text size is an option offered by CCS. Without [extemded] standard HTML text formatting specification, this is not an option. Can text styles be defined, and block-manipulated with xWD to offer similar functionality?
    IP

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada.
    Posts
    4,619

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    I think that you are looking at this from the wrong standpoint ....

    XWD is a "Web" development tool NOT a "Code" Development tool. It's main object is to produce a perfect web representation of the image that you want to see. Forget the traditional code .... if you want bullets, add them into the text. The intent is that the "Artist" producing the website doesn't need to know how this works, just that it gives him what he wants ... a website picture that looks exactly as it was envisaged!
    Keith
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    There are 10 types of people in this world .... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
    IP

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,830

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    Hi Xara Web Designer exports documents as XHTML and uses a transitional DOCTYPE allowing for W3C valid XHTML files to be exported.

    The positioning of objects within the exported page is managed using absolute positioned divs. The program exports fixed width and fixed positioned pages. This means that a page will display the same size at any resolution.

    Tags such as <p>, <h1> etc are only used for formatting and web crawlers will have no problems reading a page which does not use these tags.

    Yes <ul> and <li> tags are used as a means of structuring navigation when creating css menus for for example but Web Designer provides you with button/ menu templates and you can create your own buttons too so navigation is handled within the program.

    A web page does not need to have tables. Tables were originally made for data structure rather than layout and there are many advantages of using divs instead of tables

    Hope this helps!
    IP

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Ukraine
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    3,904

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    Well, it looks like it's a time to talk about concepts. So the straight answer to the question: "Where's the HTML and where's the structure?" is "Somewhere inside a black box which you should not care about."
    Do you also ask where is the "PostScript code" when you create graphics? I don't think so. Our approach is to eliminate the need of designer to see or alter any code at all. And to stop him worry about how it looks. After all, what's important is - how you design it, and how users see it. Why should designers or users care about how it is processed by their hardware/software? This is a problem of the programmers.
    As I say, this is a concept. We feel that html is mature enough to close it's childhood page and get rid of manual editing. Most information types has grown through this stage - first raster images were coded manually on per pixel basis but no one does this today, first formatted text was coded manually (quite similar to html), but no one does this today, PostScript was edited manually but none does it today...
    Yes, there is a strong dominating trend that html has and is supposed to be created manually (or near so). There even a lot of "guidelines" and "rules of thumb" mostly created by the mature, highly experienced html coders. But then again - this all is like advices on how is it better to write your RTF or LaTeX well formatted book using a plain text editor. As soon as you get Word, you don't need them any more.
    The WD is a first step in this direction.
    Last edited by covoxer; 05 March 2009 at 09:09 AM.
    John.
    IP

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    Now some comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    So far as I can see there is no easy way to insert basic HTML - paragraphs <p>, headings <h1>, <h2> etc and where are the bulleted lists <ul> and <ol>?
    Aside from the obvious use of bulleted lists they are also a means of structuring navigation menus. XWD is the only web tool I have seen that does not have the familiar toolbar button to add a bulleted list.
    Headings are used to give levels of importance to the text and should, if done properly, give the document a structure. When I look at the code for any of the template pages, all the text is split into DIVs - not headings, sentences or paragraphs, just snippets of text. When a human looks at that web page the structure is obvious but for Google and screen readers there is nothing in the HTML to indicate the structure of the document!
    When you read a hard printed book, how do you denote structure? There are no hidden tags. The Google, of course need hints, but what for? The rating of your site is mostly determined not on the structure of your html but on the relations from other sites.
    After all, the final goal of site creation is to make reader see what we want him to see. He will not open document source to find out that this particular line of text is marked as a header right? So only outlook has a meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    What about tables? Okay they get bad press but that is because they have been misused for years, as a method of structuring and designing a web page rather than for their original purpose of providing a means to layout tabular data. Tables have tags to denote titles and headings, giving structure and meaning to tabular content - how is this to be achieved correctly in XWD
    There's no need in table if you can place anything anywhere. Well, the tables implementation in editor (like in Word) is useful to simplify creation of large regular tables, but why should anyone care how this is represented within the html as long as reader see exactly what you want him to see?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    It is possible to use placeholders to insert HTML but it seems strange that it is easier to insert rotated text in a fancy box and see the end result as you edit than it is to insert a simple bulleted list or heading that has to be previewed to see the end result.
    Exactly! It is "strange" because of the habits you have. You need bullet? Draw one! Just like we all learn from the childhood. If you want to see something - draw it! That simple. You can do it easily in WD, but as you want to add similar shape somewhere else with different purpose, it's still just as simple in WD, but a lot of pain in html coding approach. After all, the bullets are just automation of one of the hard cases. While drawing software is an automation for all possible cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    It is considered good practice to keep the formatting of a document separate from the document content. CSS should be in an external style sheet and inline styles should be avoided.
    That's right - this is one of those rules of thumb useful for hand coding. But if do not hand code this becomes completely meaningless. Just like a source tab formatting of the RTF when you use Word to edit it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    There are accessibility issues with the use of fixed font sizes.
    This is partly true. Mostly for old browsers that do font scaling. New browsers zoom entire page which is a real solution of the accessibility problem. The font scaling is a relict form times of Mosaic when computers were simply too slow, and browser software to primitive to be able to scale graphics.
    Besides, taking this approach, all printed materials have much more accessibility issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    The HTML is not easy to read and
    Because it is created for browsing, not for reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    harks back to the bad old days of Frontpage.
    This is not true. We produce W3C compliant XHTML code. It's quality is actually higher then most sites you have out there, including many large ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexen53 View Post
    I am concerned about the non-standard method of coding the web pages.
    WD is not a tool for coding web pages, but for designing them.
    If you want to enjoy the process of coding - you have to use other tools.
    Last edited by covoxer; 05 March 2009 at 09:15 AM.
    John.
    IP

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Upstate NY, USA
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    373

    Default Re: Where's the HTML and where's the structure?

    I sense a religious war brewing...
    "You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer." -- Frank Zappa
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    IP

 

 

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