Xara: Improvements????

[David Hewitt]

At the time of posting that perhaps i didnt... I was actually reading the help file on how to digitize objects ETC and in the help file it did not say how to finish an object!

It simply said keep placing down nodes until you are done....
Ok im done what now?......esc? well apparently that should be in the documentation i think...kinda important how to finalize an object...

But even though i now know this is so...im not exactly impressed as esc is traditionally a deselect function and this has all the hall marks of a workaround....
As utilizing the enter key actually finalizes objects with the shape editor tool (making a closed shape) and this does not work with the pen tool or the freehand tool which is nonsensical...

Frankly i dont believe this is by design....i think it is more likely someone in the xara team simply forgot to implement this [Enter] to finalize with a closed shape option on the other 2 tools.....not a big sin i mean they can not do everything in every build but i do think this needs to be addressed.
Whist you may (or many not?) be happy with such inconsistencies im definitely not.

Enter is the key that they use to finalize objects in this case... i would say:
why not use enter to finalize objects in every case (normally) and use [shift]-[enter] to finalize with a closed shape......

So to answer you question alien, when i posted it i think i didnt know this but i did know that the finalization protocols were already a bit of a jumble with respect to the enter key finalization method only being applicable to shapes make with one tool when by rights there is no reason this should not be universal....i believe my post said this///////

do you think if a user wants to finalize an object and have it as a filled shape that he should only have the option of using one input tool?
Are you that dogmatic in your support? i hope not....as alot of people just jump at any justification to support what ever happens to be the case...why i do not know......perhaps because they have learned the current way and are adept at it.....
Someone told me bluntly learn the app...
if it means accepting second rate workaround sloppiness then i will not learn it..... i dont want to... i would rather lobby until such things are cleaned up then every body has the benefit of more consistent practices...
and the yes men will have a new benchmark to support.

[David Hewitt]

Welcome David,

Sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by "finalize an object" - is that something you have to do in CorelDraw, because what you are describing is not something I ever consciously do!

Not sure why you want to change the shape editor tool to the freehand tool while you are working. Again, not something I have ever needed, I think that you'll find after a while that the shape editor tool is much more powerful than you are giving it credit for.....

I know you want it to work how you like it, but I think that if Xara changes to do what YOU like, then a LOT of users who like the way they work now, are going to be very upset. Get used to the way the tools work now .... and work with them. You are already swimming against the flow, and it seems to be slowing you down thinking of how you would like the tools to work, instead of using them how they do work.

Again you are echoing the sentiments of 9 out of 10 users so i expect you will have no shortage of support for your "everything is great the way it is perspective."
Frankly i wish i did think like you... it would be allot easier...and i would be allot happier....and if every body thought this way the xara team would have no meaningful customer input.

but i totally disagree that the changes i have proposed need upset one single person.
As i have not in 99% of my proposals said that anything that currently is the case be changed (with one exeption: the enter key this is inconsistently applied and needs a little attention anyway).
All the shortcuts i proposed could be implemented using free/un-used keys...
and this being the case i can not see how anyone would be upset...as people who have already got fixed ideas would never discover the new shortcuts because they would never bother to learn anything new....
everyone would be happy.
people who wished to change tools quicker could.
people who never needed to in the first place wouldnt care...
and people who though the change was not required could take it up with those people who were already using the new shorts to their advantage.
One big happy family........

"you have no idea why anyone would want to change from the "shape editor" to the "freehand tool"?
firstly pressing F3 already does this and you can continue your shape provided you start over the top of the last node.....
Since this is so "useless" perhaps we should ask xara to remove this "useless" feature?
Why not? because its very useful and the people at xara that instituted this know it (even if you do not agree).
So anyway what i am saying is that it could be done a lot quicker with a "hot key" that is all...and people like your self who were never aware that this could be done in the first place (or never needed to do this ETC ) should not be concerned that a quicker way to do something you never needed is possible.
And people who currently do this the way it is currently possible could always continue to do it this way despite any new faster ways.....

As for finalizing a object this is what ever it is you do when you are finished with an outline...do you press esc?
if so then this is the way you currently finalize your objects.....i dont know what you personally do when your done digitizing a path perhaps there is other ways to finalize objects...even this being the case....it would be nice if only for consistencys sake enter was also used across the board for this.

P.S. but to directly answer you ......the shape editor and pen tools are different
with the shape editor tool you can create any path with as much detail as you want simply by digitizing more nodes...and as one click of the mouse produces one node (with no requirement of fussy bezier adjustments) nodes can be put down rapid fire and you can produce an accurate line as fast as you can click nodes down.......so this tool is obviously the most useful tool and the one that most people would use most of the time......this is my reason .......
if everyone is using this tool most of the time then the other 2 tools are by definition Not being used most of the time......by most people....
so to aid this, the biggest demographic using the app IE users that prefer to use the node editor tool for inputting most of the time, i say bring on the shortcuts so that these people can stay in their comfort zones and not have to leave their node editor tool to put in a single bezier node or sketch section into their paths which they bascially prefer to digitize (input) with the node editor tool anyway.....
I digress....
Why the need for inputting sketch sections? because even though the node editor's rapid fire approach is fast and accurate the freehand tool with its sketch input method is much faster (super fast infact) and has alot more feel (like freehand sketching with a pencil) but it is not as good for tracing an outline exactly (ie more feel, less accuracy).....
So changing between these to modes would be cool for cases where you might want to produce a shape approximately with super fast speed and good feel (freehand tool). but if this shape has a few sections along its otherwise free flowing path that contain fine detail and need to be done exactly (node editor or pen tool)... then this tool switch is then advantageous.
So should the user just use the node editor tool to do the whole object? even when they can do it 10 times faster by rough sketching the bulk of the shape (with the freehand tool) and then only focusing in on the detailed part of the shape with a more specialized tool.....
i think i have illustrated my point....

[Soquili]

David if you are creating a closed shape you simply place the final node in the same location as the beginning node. The shape is complete. No need for clicking escape. This is true for using the Freehand Tool, Shape Editor Tool or the Pen Tool.

If you are creating line segments without making closed shapes you do need to hit escape to tell the program when you want to stop the current line segment.

[David Hewitt]

Yes thanks for the illustration Soquili...i was aware of that..
in my previous post somewhere i talk about the "enter" key which is used as an option to finalize an object and to also close these paths automatically even for open paths!
This is the specific feature that is only applied to the shape editor tool and for some reason not the others...this was my point....
and also that because this also only has very small niche application i recommended that enter be used to finalize shapes generally...in the same way as esc currently does and for shift enter to finalize plus treat as filled (ie for open lines) as is currently the case with respect to the node editor tool (be it without the shift key though currently)

[steve.ledger]

David please try to condense your posts.
Many members will simply skip them and (obviously) miss reading your points.

It is also quite unnecessary to quote posts immediately preceding yours.

[handrawn]

Someone told me bluntly learn the app...
if it means accepting second rate workaround sloppiness then i will not learn it..... i dont want to... i would rather lobby until such things are cleaned up then every body has the benefit of more consistent practices...

but until you have learnt it how can you constructively criticise it? - you destroy all your own arguments - you cannot lobby to improve something when you only have a half-assed grasp of how it is meant to work

Again you are echoing the sentiments of 9 out of 10 users so i expect you will have no shortage of support for your "everything is great the way it is perspective."
..

meaning everyone else is out of step ... right?

So should the user just use the node editor tool to do the whole object? even when they can do it 10 times faster by rough sketching the bulk of the shape (with the freehand tool) and then only focusing in on the detailed part of the shape with a more specialized tool.....
i think i have illustrated my point..

actually whilst we are on the general subject of 'improvements' - what would be nice [for me] would be a feature that anime studio has whereby holding down the mouse key at a given point on a line and dragging one way thickens the line, dragging the other way thins it

finally:
the latest version of xtreme help is not as detailed as it could be - agreed.

[David Hewitt]

actually whilst we are on the general subject of 'improvements' - what would be nice [for me] would be a feature that anime studio has whereby holding down the mouse key at a given point on a line and dragging one way thickens the line, dragging the other way thins it

This is a good idea! (see its actually not that hard to pay a complement.... )

meaning everyone else is out of step ... right?

most people blindly support the status quo simply because they believe the gods that brought them their software can do no wrong...so to answer your question...yes most people are too accepting and willing to champion ideas with their hearts and not their heads.

but until you have learnt it how can you constructively criticise it? - you destroy all your own arguments - you cannot lobby to improve something when you only have a half-assed grasp of how it is meant to work

it may be easy to erode someones credibility with such talk especially in light of my last point...but in reality a good idea stands on its own 2 legs regardless of the mouth that utters it...those with eyes to see will see...
that is all that counts...

[handrawn]

l

[RTK]

most people blindly support the status quo simply because they believe the gods that brought them their software can do no wrong...so to answer your question...yes most people are too accepting and willing to champion ideas with their hearts and not their heads.

There will always be (perceived or not) "wrongs"... in any software. If you find your perfectly humpable software – hump there. Do realize that the Xara forum "as is", has been here for members for over 10 years = your "brilliant" ideas... are really being re-hashed for the "umpteenth" time. There's nothing "new" here at all.

Xara does listen. In fact, they are probably the most open developer you will find. What you seem to have missed is that TG is for user by users, no one here has anything to do with product development. Sure, Xara pitches in on occasion, but really, it is a user-driven and a user-moderated forum. How about some perspective please... It's old – it has been done – it has been said - learn to crawl before you start stumbling around all over the place. It is common courtesy on any forum.

it may be easy to erode someones credibility with such talk especially in light of my last point...but in reality a good idea stands on its own 2 legs regardless of the mouth that utters it...those with eyes to see will see...
that is all that counts...

Credibility is something you earn… Randomly flying around like a crazed pigeon and crapping on members that unselfishly help other people makes you a troll.

There is (and has been for years) a dialogue with Xara about features. You are not part of it (yet) because your credibility is ZERO... However, if you hatched something "astonishing" – rest assured, Xara (and everyone else) has taken note. As with any software developer – Xara will have an (I'm sure) ever-changing roadmap of features.

What they choose to implement will be a business decision (it works that way everywhere) – patience. How about some patience and just "doing" (instead of whining)... Which leads me to:

Sooo (again) here's the thing: Try drawing something... Show us! If you hope for real-life solutions – show members real-life problems. Key strokes are just that... key strokes... How about actually doing something?

Risto

[Giovanni]

Ditto, Risto!