Layer Inadequacy

[BONES]

Most of the comments in those various threads confirm my belief that a lot of users are trapped in a certain mindset that closes them to using Xara in the best, most efficient way. As I said, I think Xara already has an extra layer [pun intended] of control in this area - Object->Group->Layer - compared to Photoshop's Layer->Linked Layers/Adjustment Layer paradigm, which is why I question any need for even greater complexity. That said, if so many others see advantages, I want to understand what they are because maybe I am missing out on something worthwhile and could improve my workflow. But so far all the responses indicate to me that people are not getting any benefit from their layered workflow, so I'm just pressing on until I get a clearer idea.

But if your design gets real complicated, it would be nice to be able to make a hierarchical layer structure to organize it--especially if you are prototyping something for a client and you want to make one file that has several different design options.

I do very complex designs and I invariably find that putting things in layers makes it all more complex, not less. As for different design options, multi-page documents handle that very well.

As an overly simplistic example, say you want to do a landscape. The layers could be just 'Foreground' and 'Sky' if it was simple. But imagine that you wanted to try a couple different options for the sky--maybe a 'space' theme, and a regular clouds theme. In the clouds theme you wanted to try a couple different types of objects for effect. One option could have just birds floating about, another involves angels, and a third has aliens flying down in UFOs. Nested layers would be a great way to approach that if you wanted to keep all of your work for that project in one file. It would also allow you to play with different options more freely.

Sure, that is one example that makes sense but how often do you really do that? I often have literally dozens of iterations on a GUI theme but keeping them all in one document would make it so freakin' slow that it would be useless. As it is, once I reach a certain level Xara slows down considerably - it can take 5 seconds or more for a single pixel nudge of one object to redraw. If I had several layers, each with a similar number of objects, I can't imagine how slow it would get.

The above may not be the way you work, but I'd use the heck out of hierarchical layers, and probably in additional ways than imagined above. They would open up new workflow possibilities, and simplify some things I've muttered about in the past.

I still don't see it. There are other things that create limits long before I would get to a point of seeing an advantage in anything like this. I experiment endlessly but I find "Save As..." and Xara's seemingly endless undo to be my best friends when I am doing that. Moving something from one layer to another is no more or less work than copying/pasting from another document.

Example: Using a 3D application that can save geometry, lights, channels, shadows, cameras and etc. to separate layers is essential to post production work. Xara Xtreme cannot even begin to filter out the differences or the layers on this type of file.

Xara is not a post-production tool. For a start, it doesn't support HDRI, so why would you bother with it for compositing multi-pass renders? Horses for courses and only a loon would see any kind of opportunity for Xara in that scenario. I wouldn't even do that stuff in Photoshop, its just not made for it.

The same with applications that use special effects and layers in PSD. If one wants to turn on/off the effect or put a mask on something or perhaps apply an effect and put that in different layers, it becomes a cumbersome, if not impossible task in Xara Xtreme.

That's because they are entirely different applications. you may as well whine that you can't open an Excel spreadsheet in Notepad.

With all that said, it's why I keep Photoshop C3 Extended, Illustrator and After Effects handy, as I know Xara cannot do such layered work.

And that's why I use Autodesk Toxik.

OK, it seems that many people don't see the need for this in their work... fair enough. It's not compulsory to use the Layers gallery. Beef it up for those of us that want better capabilities, and the rest of you can leave it closed.

That's not to say we are not open to its advantages, I just don't understand what they could possibly be. I've always used layers up the wazoo in Photoshop, because there are huge benefits in doing so but even though CorelDraw has also had layers for 10 years or more, I've never seen a compelling reason to use them [same with Xara, of course]. It is a paradigm that doesn't have the same value in a structured art package and I think the combination of groups [which I see as functionally equivalent to linked layers in Photoshop] and current layering functionality [which I don't think has any equivalent in Photoshop] is more than adequate. BTW, in case its not obvious, I see each object in a drawing as the functional equivalent of a layer in Photoshop. In fact, Corel Photopaint, which I prefer to Photoshop, even calls them objects.

Actually what I was saying was that layers simplify my work and nested and/or grouped layers would help even more. I don't understand the resistance to this idea, it's not as if using groups or other layer functions would be compulsory.

Its not resistance, just a quest for understanding. Who knows, you might have some insight that I lack [if you don't ask, you never find out].

[Egg Bramhill]

Hi Bones.

As it is, once I reach a certain level Xara slows down considerably - it can take 5 seconds or more for a single pixel nudge of one object to redraw.

That's one of the best reason for using layers! The delay is caused by the complex screen redraw. Temporarily hiding a complex linear fill when zoomed in removes the redraw delay.

[Xcellent]

Place one rectangle and fill it with a color. Place another rectangle (same size) on top of that, add shading and transparency. Place another rectangle ontop of that with other shading and transparency effects. There are 3 objects ontop of each other and its impossible to select only the first rectangle underneath (except using the name gallery, which is way too slow when using thousands of objects). What does it look like without using the top shape, just add to it another layer and click on the eye on/off button to compare. Now the entire 3 rectangles could be one of thousands buttons on a GUI. It would be very useful to have these 3 buttons 'grouped' into one layer hirachy and enable/disable the parent to make the button visible or hide it. You could also copy the entire hirachy to create another button.. Thats just a simple example to me on when advanced/hierarchical layers would come in handy.

[handrawn]

Most of the comments in those various threads confirm my belief that a lot of users are trapped in a certain mindset that closes them to using Xara in the best, most efficient way.

well lets see now - how much support is there for the idea that layers are not necessary in xtreme - how much support is there for them being very useful indeed - who is in what mindset?

you want to hide something without removing it or you want to lock something in place as uneditable, what do you use?

maybe you never do this - I don't have a problem with that - I don't have a problem understanding it - I would have a problem working that way, but fortunately I don't need to.
Nested layers would make the organisation of what I do even easier, and organisation is what this is all about.

my work is never 'finished', it is ongoing, always being adapted and recycled in part or whole - this needs forward planning in how the files are structured.

there are files I made a couple of months ago [never mind last year] where I would be totally lost if there was no layer structure to separate out what I needed to carry forward - my memory is not that good - I do so many other things as well ....

[PixelDust]

Place one rectangle and fill it with a color. Place another rectangle (same size) on top of that, add shading and transparency. Place another rectangle ontop of that with other shading and transparency effects. There are 3 objects ontop of each other and its impossible to select only the first rectangle underneath (except using the name gallery, which is way too slow when using thousands of objects).

The rectangle underneath could be selected by Alt-clicking on the rectangle. However, it might be hard to tell which one of the three rectangles was selected unless you knew what kind of fill it had, or if you had named the rectangle.

I agree with you that the name gallery would be too slow when dealing with many objects.

What does it look like without using the top shape, just add to it another layer and click on the eye on/off button to compare. Now the entire 3 rectangles could be one of thousands buttons on a GUI. It would be very useful to have these 3 buttons 'grouped' into one layer hirachy and enable/disable the parent to make the button visible or hide it. You could also copy the entire hirachy to create another button.. Thats just a simple example to me on when advanced/hierarchical layers would come in handy.

Yes, right now there isn't a way to lock individual objects on a layer. One way this could be done might be to have an option on the right-click menu to lock/unlock an object (CorelDraw has this). However, you would need to be able to select the object in order to unlock it, unless you could unlock it from the layer gallery.

As for hiding and unhiding, right now we can only hide and unhide whole layers. For those who don't want a complicated layer gallery, maybe Xara could have a "hide object" command in the right click menu, and a "unhide all hidden objects" command.

However, I think I'd prefer the hide/unhide options to be on the layer gallery, as you might only want to unhide one hidden object without unhiding others. That would be harder to do with a menu option only, as it would require selecting a hidden object before unhiding it.

I think I mentioned this before, but it would be nice to be able to have some objects or layers in wireframe and others in color mode. This might be hard to implement without an improved layer gallery.

I do notice that while Illustrator has this feature, if you happen to have two layers with different visibility - one wireframe, others in full color mode - sometimes there are redraw problems where the wireframe object gets partially drawn in color. If Xara adds this, I hope it works correctly.

[PixelDust]

Most of the comments in those various threads confirm my belief that a lot of users are trapped in a certain mindset that closes them to using Xara in the best, most efficient way.

Its not resistance, just a quest for understanding. Who knows, you might have some insight that I lack [if you don't ask, you never find out].

Maybe this could be a topic for a future XaraXone article (unless there was one I haven't read yet!). I know I'd like to learn more about using Xara's layers to their fullest.

[handrawn]

...right now there isn't a way to lock individual objects on a layer...... As for hiding and unhiding, right now we can only hide and unhide whole layers....

Exactly

However, I think I'd prefer the hide/unhide options to be on the layer gallery, as you might only want to unhide one hidden object without unhiding others

Agreed in both cases [hide and lock]

I think I mentioned this before, but it would be nice to be able to have some objects or layers in wireframe and others in color mode.

Yes Yes Yes - its a pain we can no longer mix these views at all - this has been mentioned before
......

[JonH27]

But so far all the responses indicate to me that people are not getting any benefit from their layered workflow...

I'm not getting any benefit from my layered workflow IN XTREME because Xtreme won't allow me to do what I need for some of my work. So at those times I reluctantly use Illustrator whose Layers palette lets me see the basic attributes of all objects, and gives me information about and control over how they are grouped and layered. I see that as a shortcoming in Xara, not a problem with my workflow I think handrawn has nicely covered the sort of situation where this matters.

[BONES]

That might make you feel smugly superior but it doesn't help me understand the situation. Although, if you find anything at all about Illustrator useful, you probably have a very different approach to this work than I do, because I'd rather use Word to do illustrations than Illustrator.

That's one of the best reason for using layers! The delay is caused by the complex screen redraw. Temporarily hiding a complex linear fill when zoomed in removes the redraw delay.

I've tried that in the past and not found it to speed things up in the slightest.

Place one rectangle and fill it with a color. Place another rectangle (same size) on top of that, add shading and transparency. Place another rectangle ontop of that with other shading and transparency effects. There are 3 objects ontop of each other and its impossible to select only the first rectangle underneath (except using the name gallery, which is way too slow when using thousands of objects).

Nudge the top shapes out of the way to select the lower one. You don't need to move your focus from the drawing while you work and you still get an excellent idea of how changes affect the composited image from the area that remains overlapping, or you can just select the bottom one and slide it back under before you start to work on it. Its probably about the same amount of work as stuffing around with layers, except you don't end up whining that layers are no good.

Now the entire 3 rectangles could be one of thousands buttons on a GUI. It would be very useful to have these 3 buttons 'grouped' into one layer hirachy and enable/disable the parent to make the button visible or hide it. You could also copy the entire hirachy to create another button.. Thats just a simple example to me on when advanced/hierarchical layers would come in handy.

Except that GUIs don't work that way. You only create one button, no matter how many times it is used in the UI. And CTRL+D is the easiest way to "duplicate the entire hirachy" [sic] of anything.

well lets see now - how much support is there for the idea that layers are not necessary in xtreme - how much support is there for them being very useful indeed - who is in what mindset?

The difference, as I seem to need to spell it out, is that all those on the other side of the discussion have a problem and I don't. So my mindset is that I can do extremely complex work without using layers at all, while yours is that someone else has to fix Xara to cover for your inability to use it effectively.

you want to hide something without removing it or you want to lock something in place as uneditable, what do you use? maybe you never do this

That is precisely what I do use layers for, and they work well enough, up to a point. But if I can get by without using them at all, then I am much, much happier and can work far more efficiently.

[remi]

Hi Bones,

That might make you feel smugly superior but it doesn't help me understand the situation.

The situation is simple to understand: We like Xara Xtreme's layers very much, but we want to see the move to the next level: nested layers.
That's the whole point of these layer discussions.

Nudge the top shapes out of the way to select the lower one.

No, using different layers is the best practice.

But if I can get by without using them at all, then I am much, much happier and can work far more efficiently.

I would say, if you're happy with your workflow, enjoy it. We don't want to change your workflow. But as you've learned, that we follow an another workflow, it's also easily to understand for you that _we_ want nested layers.

If Xara would be willing to implement this, we all could sit in circle and sing:
If you're happy and you know it,
clap your hands (clap clap)...

Remi