Talent. We've talked about it before but...

[zaphodeist]

From experience in areas other than graphics, I know what you say is true Steve, though machines might facilitate talent in a similar way to giving a child proper paper and pencils instead of a slate and chalk [eeee when I were a lad ....] - hope they do cos I need lots of facilitating But yes, machines are just tools, they can't exercise that sort of judgement. We're not obsolete yet

[Seagull]

Don't mix up talent with ability. Art is about talent, but I think it is more about vision and imagination, the ability to see and produce what you see, regardless of the medium. Some use canvas, some computer grafics, others use dirty windshields, but not everybody is capable. That's what makes the world work. Some people are artist, others collect garbage, still others are mechanics. The artist works so he can sell so he can pay the mechanic to repair his car, the mechanic works repairing cars so he can buy a piece of art. If the mechanic could produce art we wouldn't need the artist, so the mechanic would also be out of work. I personally am not artistically inclined but that does not mean I can not enjoy my copy of xara, I doddle while most others create art. I can practice and practice till the cows come home, I will be very good manipulating xara, but at the end of the day I will still not be able to create art cause the art is not in my head..........frank

[geminiguy]

Then why won't my mechanic just take one of my pictures as payment & call it even???
Sorry, I couldn't resist
But seriously though............. As I recall, my mechanic's only interest in art... is the monthly pin-up girl calender he puts up in his garage each year....
I know it was just an analogy... but it was definitely one just begging for a punch line

I see talent and ability as basically the same thing. At least within this subject
Natural ability / natural talent.... which ever you prefer to call it... it definitely exists

[steve.ledger]

I agree that Talent and Ability are almost synonymous.

Talent = Natural Ability
Skill = Ability that has been acquired by training

One requires hard work and discipline, the other requires opportunity and nuture.

Both will result in achievment, though often you can tell one from the other

[handrawn]

Hummm...

Natural ability comes down to being able to see the possibilities I think. Maybe not consciously but at some level.

And all 'skill-learning', from one aspect at least, is 'seeing the possibilities' and applying them

[Ross Macintosh]

My biggest concern with the whole 'talent' premise is the negative effect it has on students learning skills. Teachers in our culture can't help but classify students as having talent or no talent. They might not do it intentionally but they do it in their actions and words. Little Billy is praised for his talent like he has a special gift. Little Betty and Ralph look on with blank faces - in their minds they are thinking that lucky ol' Billy has a gift while they were short-changed. Like a switch has been thrown, Betty & Ralph loose interest in the particular pursuit and henceforth try to avoid it. For the rest of their lives they may avoid certain tasks with the excuse 'Oh, I have no talent for that'.

We all know the reluctance to engage in anything for which we feel we have no talent. Some people would rather die than speak in public for fear of humiliation. We feel it is embarrassing to expose any lack of talent. It has been so drilled into us by our upbringings that talent is good and lack of it is something to be ashamed of. The sad part is the discouragement Betty and Ralph felt didn't have to be. When they needed encouragement they were denied it. The 'talent' the teacher recognized in Billy perhaps should have been attributed to skills he advanced before school. It is probable he had no more talent that Betty or Ralph.

In our culture we so highly value talent that we try to find any 'hidden talents' in our kids so we can encourage those gifts. We seek to have our kids stand out from the crowd as 'gifted' in some way. It can be athletic, academic, or creative. When we think they are good at gymnastics we get up at 6am and drag them to practice. We really put value on being 'good' at something like it is that most important thing in life. When our kids (or ourselves) don't succeed at any particular task we say "well at least you did your best" as if doing your best really is important. Here's a shocker -- you don't need to do your best! Try it! Lightening won't strike you dead.

[Seagull]

Hi Ross

Badly phrased myself last night. I should have used the word skill. Hours of practice and repetition will develope your skill, but being skillfull does not make you an artist nor does it prevent you from being one. That comes from inside and yes, it can be developed to a certain degree but there are limits to how much.

And sorry Paul. Just goes to show your mechanic has no tastes. Orrrrrr......maybe that's the problem, maybe he does have tastes

......frank (and no, I'm not flaming you, I'm pulling your leg)

[handrawn]

. Little Betty and Ralph look on with blank faces - in their minds they are thinking that lucky ol' Billy has a gift while they were short-changed. Like a switch has been thrown, Betty & Ralph loose interest in the particular pursuit and henceforth try to avoid it. For the rest of their lives they may avoid certain tasks with the excuse 'Oh, I have no talent for that'.

Ross if this happens, then surely it is because little Betty and Ralph have a bad attitude to life.

I reckon the answer is not to stop praising the ones who are 'good', but to stimulate imagination and curiosity in those who are not; two attributes that can turn any disappointment into a challenge, a learning experience, or an irrelevance.
This starts with the parenting, before the schooling, a child should know and be comfortable with its own worth from the very start.
And it requires teachers that are allowed to teach in the real meaning of that word.

It is negativity that causes the problems, not ''doing your best'

[geminiguy]

This isn't based on the same idea as that story about the officials at a high school football game, allowing the losing team (who was getting their butts kicked) to simply walk off the field after making the other team stop scoring against them so they wouldn't feel bad... is it....
Children are automatically "special" in the first place. But for proper development and adjustment to "real-life" they need to learn that some people can do things that others cannot
It builds individuality and acceptance as well as the ability to cope with reality.

I am so tired of this crusade of late where parents / people don't think it should be allowed for any children to excel nor succeed over others because it will make those other children "feel bad"
Tough poopies.... that's life, get over it, and move on, practice more or try something else.... It's not the end of the world. Just keep striving and working toward your own goals, is basically what I try to teach my children.
My son wants to be a famous wrestler for WWE I told him, it will take a lot of hard work, you need to learn acrobatics, coreography, etc... and it really takes a lot to get to the top.... you have to almost literally push & aggressively promote youself, so on & so on.... But I tell him, no matter what he wants to do.... it will involve "work" even if you just have a natural talent for it

In any case... the "only" place I have ever seen natural talent turn into absolute cockiness and poor social skills... is in the area of athletics / sports. Right up into adulthood. After all, let's look at the role-models within the sports industry... guys who hit other players who anger them, then pay a pitifully small fine of money, when you or I would be arrested.... this "I am untouchable" mentality. And in reality, they are... because society deems it as simply "acceptable" in that unique field
In this area... these things are actually promoted & developed by coaches and parents of those skilled children... as well as the general public... and I think it's awful.
But once again..... that's just life. And if the kid can't take it... then competitive sports just ain't their thing

In life, some are good at this, others are good at that.... some have talent, some do not... Then... there are ven some who "think" they have talent (like me) who really don't... but they have had their family & friends over-codling them all their life and fill them with a false sense of confidence.... which is absolutely devastating when reality hits them in the face later on in life
Take the show where singers come into a room with Paula Abdule and those two guys..... (yea... I really don't care about their names) This is a perfect example of this entire topic..... Natural talent does exist in some people and not in others.... but those "others" can "learn" the skill... it just takes a bit more work and persistance
I often wonder how many of those people whom that British guy bashes (which I love).... go home broken hearted.... but then get over it, accept the reality, as well as the lesson learned... and keep on going and just putting more into their skill..... After all... just imagine how much it takes to even go into a room with 3 absolute strangers and sing to them (with no music)
The funny part of that is.... I knew a guy who couldn't carry a tune with no music behind his voice.... but put music there and ..... WOW... just absolutely soul burning.
Sometimes, even with a natural talent.... it can appear to not exist if you're not in the right environment.

Well.... I think this is one of the longest posts around...... What do I win
Sorry for it... but there was just so much to get across
OK.... giddiyup

[Ross Macintosh]

Ross if this happens, then surely it is because little Betty and Ralph have a bad attitude to life.

No not necessarily. Our culture tends towards if you can't do something well then don't do it at all. The "Sorry but I have no talent for that" is frequently a socially accepted excuse for not having to do something that might make you uncomfortable.

I'm not against teachers praising the kid who does something well but I am against teachers making that kid feel 'gifted' and the remaining 'ungifted'. I believe with proper teaching they can all be what was previously considered gifted.

This reminds me of one theory about why Julius Cesar was resented by the senators. Julius apparently had a relatively rare 'talent' to be able to read silently. In his time practically everyone read only by speaking the words. For Julius to be able to read without moving his lips was considered a 'gift' which added to the resentments others had for his success. In the successive generations what was for Julius a special talent is today expected of all seven-year-olds. If we accept that little Billy can draw because he has talent and the other kids can't so well because they lack it, then we are accepting a falsehood. Chances are those kids can all be taught to draw equally well.