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Thread: Cheating...

  1. #11

    Default Re: Cheating...

    "Better" is a relative term. Traditional, computer drawn, abstract, realistic, modern, classical, or a mixture of everything. Which would be better?
    And how would you define "Art"?.
    Cheating is using other people's work and passing it off as your own. Or using automated methods to alter photos and not admitting it.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    You can see it in these forums that many tend to value more highly that which was achieved with more effort. If there's two images very similar in appearance, the artist who used a hard-work approach will get more appreciation than the one who achieved the result easily. This suggests what we value is more than the appearance of a final work.

    We may say tracing over a photograph is not a issue but then we go all ga-ga over similar final images achieved without such techniques. Its like we do really feel that the tracing has less virtue. I believe most artists do use time-saving techniques but due to the expectations of others they aren't proud of having used them. In other words, many artists feel like cheaters. They generally won't discuss time-saving techniques because they know others will think less of their accomplishments. Many seem to wear a shame that makes them lack confidence.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Does it require more skill to draw/paint from life or than to copy an already flattened for you image, such as a photograph? Absolutely.

    Is it more difficult to create a complex scene using your imagination, than to create something similar using photographs? Yes of course. Is it easier to use a projector than a grid? No doubt.

    Am I personally more impressed by artist who paint and draw from life, than photographs? Oh, yes, much more. Do I think that artists who draw/paint from life are more skilled than artist than the ones that have to use photographs? Absolutely. But the thing is, with all the things available today (and only looking at the finished piece); it can be pretty difficult to pick out works that were done using a projector (especially with artist that use it as a guide, and add their own flair to the image (not just a clear-cut reproduction)).

    Do I think it's cheating? Yeah, to a point. But what really counts in the end, is the finished piece. If the finished piece is enjoyable, it shouldn't really matter how the artist got there, no? Only looking at the finished piece - how can you really tell if someone "cheated" or not?

    Artist through time have always used "aids" to get their idea/art down. Drawing using grids, and looking though meshes etc. Heck, it's even speculated that Michelangelo used clay models and light to cast shadows on the arched ceiling of the Sistine Chapel to trace the perspective of. Who knows? Does it matter how it was done? It doesn't make the end result any less enjoyable, does it?

    Is there snobbery in the art world? Hmmmphhh... Is there jealousy because some things sell and other things don't? Hmmmphhh...

    It's all in the end result. The pain and suffering (or the lack there of...) to get there, matters very little to most viewers. It might matter if you are striving to get into the upper echelon of the art world, galleries and museums... But "success" to most artist, I gather is being able to make a living with what they love doing, no?

    Risto
    Last edited by RTK; 23 February 2007 at 05:34 PM.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Quote Originally Posted by Risto Klint View Post
    But "success" to most artist, I gather is being able to make a living with what they love doing, no?
    Risto
    Not necessarily.
    Success is achieving a goal, in accomplishing what one sets out to accomplish.

    That one is paid for one's effort is an indicator that a certain standard has been reached.

    Also, that one's (knowlegeable) peers praise one's work is a similar indication.

    The thing is, how do you know and what defines, the goal?


    Some folks will pay good money for rubbish in the same way folks will say that rubbish is quality work.

    Thus, you canna win.

    If success is achieving a specific goal, then you could say you are successful when you have reached that goal.

    However, keep moving the goalposts, I say ... push the envelope and never be satisfied with goals reached but seek to exceed what is already accomplished.

    Every person has to decide for itself what criteria have to me met for it to consider itself successful.

    Most, I think, having met their defined criteria will not be satisfied and will seek to improve further.
    "Intbel" ... "Can't" is not an option.

    Compliance is futile. Resistance is futile. Just do your own thing an' ignore 'em.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Intbel, good points, but I was more thinking about professional artists. If you don’t sell – no money for food, studio rent, paints and canvases. This means that you have to work with whatever pays your bills – and the time left at the end of the day; you can spend on your art, no?

    I’m sure different artists have different goals, but I would think that being able to eat is pretty important to all of them. So is being able to do your art as much as possible.

    Perhaps this is clearer, being able to do simply do your art, is more important to most artists than being included in the Metropolitan Museum of Art - "cheating" or not.

    Risto

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Macintosh View Post
    Raymond, thinking of oil painting as you suggest: Let's say you have two choices. One is to pose the model and paint her 'from life'. The other way is to have a photo which you then transfer onto the blank canvas using a grid technique or a projector. It was that second method the letter writer was complaining about. The writer's point being that a 'real' artist would only do it the first way.
    Well, if he wants to define a 'real' artist as one who uses no aids then he is free do do that and form his opinions accordingly.

    Some might suggest that even he is not a reall artist if he doesn't mix his own colours from raw pigments

    In digital art we have even more choices than the oil painter. Thinking of those cars some of you draw, I could take a SketchUp 3d model of a car, pose it as I like, and export its lines/shapes as vectors into Xara Xtreme where I could then colourize it and add reflections. The SketchUp approach would save time by getting the perspective perfect with almost no effort. It would save me considerable time... Would my approach be less "art" than yours if you achieved a similar result the hard way?Regards, Ross
    Not at all. I could take Sketch up 3D and wouldn't have a freakin' clue.
    All tools, whether physical, manual, outomatic or electronic demand skills which need to be developed in order to get the best out of them.

    The expert use of all such tools is an artform, imo.
    "Intbel" ... "Can't" is not an option.

    Compliance is futile. Resistance is futile. Just do your own thing an' ignore 'em.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Quote Originally Posted by Risto Klint View Post
    Perhaps this is clearer, being able to do simply do your art, is more important to most artists than being included in the Metropolitan Museum of Art - "cheating" or not.
    Risto
    To hell with the museums of art.
    The works for such places is not always chosen according to quality.

    The art world is full of people who form their opinions according to the popular art critic of the day whose only qualification is that he can tell the difference between a Picasso and Rembrandt.


    There are artists today whose work is comparable to the work of the old masters but who do not get the same recognition and whose work is valued far less - not because their work isn't of high quality, but because they are not valued on account of them not being either famous or dead or both dead and famous.

    Michaelangelo could have been a great artist if he hadn't waste so much of his time decorating the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel
    "Intbel" ... "Can't" is not an option.

    Compliance is futile. Resistance is futile. Just do your own thing an' ignore 'em.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    I suppose one modeling in clay and other types of material in the past were dismayed when 3D CG artists took over their venue.

    My Mother is a much better artist than I because she has done it longer, taken a huge amount of formal classes and is a natural artist. What I mean by natural is that she can go into a room or view an outdoor scene and decide exactly what would be needed in the way of materials and the best point of view to depict that art.

    She only does China painting now. That main reason I suspect it is more social as several of her friends gather frequently to learn from each other and compare their works.

    I will never forget the times on those quiet weekend afternoons, where she would take up a pencil and sketch something out in several views just for the reason of doing it and she could learn from her own experience.

    She painted several children's rooms using the projector method. I suspect there is nothing wrong with that and she would say it is quicker to do it that way and the reason was to decorate the room and not to think of it as a canvas that could be put away so it could be done at a later time. The key word is expediency in that situation.

    Perhaps working with dress patterns, cutting out each section is cheating as well, but I suspect that one can be more precise with the fit than eyeballing it. The concept of cookie cutting is well know and is often used by mothers to have their children cut their own cookies from dough. Are the cookies less artful because someone has used a metal or plastic cutter?

    There are many Architects that have been considered Artists. They used blueprints and measuring devices. Are they cheating?

    What about the pastry Chef who uses certain size pans, squeeze tubes that emit certain patterns and certain size of confections to make those fancy cakes. Do they cheat?

    Art comes in many forms and maybe in the mind of the canvas artist using any tool besides the brush and paints is cheating.

    If you know someone like this, ask them what they consider art. Is a beautifully done cake, a one of a kind building or a professionally done landscape less art that something that is done on a canvas?

    The key and commonality here is the tool or tools used. One should not fault someone else because they use more or less tools to complete their work.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    In the traditional sense, artistic ability is a talent, a gift if you like, and no amount of hard work and application will render this ability to the ungifted. Their efforts will result in more competent work, but they will never achieve results akin to the truly talented. This applies in all walks of life.

    True artists, receive their gifts at birth and have no say in the matter. Of course, such talent needs development and nurturing, but it's there to use or not. Mozart, apparently, when seeing a piano for the first time as a young child, could just play it; he knew instinctively how it worked.

    So, is art only for the truly skilled, I don't think so. What a dull place the world would be if only the extremely gifted were allowed to express themselves. Many people, like myself, feel the desire to create and whilst missing the inherent talent, will look for ways through which they can express those creative desires. This, I suggest, is not cheating, rather a use of available means to help mitigate one's shortcomings.

    Is the art created by a true artist better than mine? Absolutely, I am in awe of their abilities (except for those idiots, and the bigger idiots that support them, who seem to win the Turner Prize every year).

    So, I think that the editorial of which you speak is missing the point. Art, or perhaps a better phrase would be 'creative endeavour', is for everyone not just the elite.
    -- Bob

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Cheating...

    Bin reading this with interest


    what counts is the artwork
    cheating is nicking stuff
    saying that other people are cheating because they use different methods is pretention

    gets a good discussion going though...
    -------------------------------
    Nothing lasts forever...

 

 

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