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  1. #11
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Hey sally you learned to play so many instruments? Wow I only play three... guitare, sax and a recorder... oh and I can play very well with one's nerves that's for sure

    Anyway, RedWombat kind of got my point about apps but for me it's still easier to learn other software if I've already learned one. I kinda understand the logic behind it.

    About Illustrator and adobe programs in general. There are disadvantages and advantages of their own. Illustrator is an industrial software, and as being such you can reuse objects. Something you cannot do in Xara.

    Macromedia is working with objects, which is terrific, since if I'm working on a book for example, I can use the same object over and over again.

    In adobe programs you can create layouts. So maybe it will take more time to really make the gradient you want, but then you can store it and reuse it. I've rarely seen a layout that needs to be very original. All magazines and books, flyers and such has all the same concept, so I can create a symbol or a style depending on a program, and then reuse it.

    I think that Xara lacks few things that still puts it behind:

    1. Multipages
    2. Styles/symbols
    3. better text handeling.

    These three things will improve greatly Xara's usage. For me anyway.
    Xara is meant for drawing. It's great at what it's supposed to do. But that's not what I need mostly. So I use either freehand or Illustrator. Preferably Freehand since it's the most common software to use in here, and because it has multipages.
    Last edited by Availor; 16 July 2006 at 09:54 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Where are the multiple pages in Illustrator? That's InDesign and more money.

    Comparing one to the other, Xara is the "mouse that roared".

    Yes, Xara is for drawing, for page layout at a reasonable price, there is CorelDRAW. It does most of InDesign, most of Illustrator, most of Photoshop including PhotoPaint. Except for books, of course, the memory management isn't up to that. But it doesn't claim to be either.

    For short publications, it is very good. Good print preview.

    But Illustrator is getting better.

    But I root for the underdog.
    Last edited by sallybode; 16 July 2006 at 10:47 PM.
    Every day's a new day, "draw" on what you've learned.

    Sally M. Bode
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    I've always been partial to DRAW myself. A lot of Bang for the Buck!

    Multiple pages are possible in Illustrator, but they don't refer to it that way. You have to change the page spread with the printer driver. DRAW is much more intuitive in that respect. Click the little +, and Walla Walla Washington, you have a new page. I always found DRAW very nice to use and very versatile, that is except in the early days. I always had crashing issues back then. . The later versions are much more stable. I liked it enough to buy stock in the company back when they were public.

    DRAW never got their just kudos that's for sure.

    I do find myself jumping between apps because I find that each can do something better than the other, making my design life that much better.

    I do agree with Sally though. Adobe's prices are sky high! I'm fortunate to have CS2, but that will be the last update I do for awhile.

    You know, I feel the need to come up with a cool tag line like you guys have for my signature.

    Red

    Big Plan Creative - Napoleon had one . . . Einstein had one . . . Do you have one?
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    I think, it depends on the point of view:
    • If you want to write a book, Xara Xtreme and Adobe Illustrator aren't the correct programs.
    • If you want to create a vector drawing, Indesign or Quark aren't the first choice.
    • If you want to draw easy and fast, Adobe Illustrator is a pain and Xara Xtreme is excellent.
    • If you want to alter digitial images extensively, a vector graphics editor is not the first choice.
    • If you want to create high-value 3D graphics, Xara 3D isn't the correct program.


    It's the same old question, as with operating systems: Which is the best one? Windows, Mac, Linux, ...? The answer is: It depends on your requirements, your individual taste and your purse.

    There is no software package, which beats the competition in all points. But it's fine, that there are several programs available. Perhaps, someday Illustrator is faster and easier than Xara Xtreme or cheaper than Corel Draw. In the meantime, I use Adobe Illustrator reluctantly.

    Remi
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  5. #15
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Hi Remi,
    I have agreed with all of your posts recently but I think that InDesign now is getting close to being the complete programme sice the introduction of CS2 where now you can edit PDF's without just placing them. Now before you reply stating the obvious, I did say "close to being to the complete programme".

    Sorry Sally I just read your comments, and I could not agree more with your statements on AI but a few were off when it came to ID. Yes some of what you state in "spot colours" are correct but I have always found that the preflight summeries were accurate and you must know how difficult transparencies are to separate on plates which I think ID does better that CD at least I can only comment upto ver. 12.
    Last edited by Albacore; 17 July 2006 at 12:23 AM.
    Design is thinking made visual.
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  6. #16
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Albacore
    Now before you reply stating the obvious...
    No, no, Albacore - I would never do such a thing.

    I remember a large visionary some years ago. He had some great ideas, how modern Software should be build. He said, that there could be an centralized and open canvas to draw or write on it, and there could be developers, which creates some small tools to work with the canvas. He thought about Software as a construction kit with Objects/Components from different Software companies/Developers. There would be companies, which develops small texteditor components and other companies, which would program some pixel graphic components or vector graphic components - up to 3D graphic components . Each component would draw on the centralized canvas. There would be centralized functions to save/print/export the content of the (multipaged) canvas.

    He thought, there would be no more large software packages with tons of functions. Instead there would be some small pieces of software from different vendors with access to the centralized canvas and the customers would be able to buy their components from different specialists:
    • Some texteditor components from Microsoft (MS Word), Adobe (InDesign) or Quark (QuarkXPress)...
    • Some bitmap manipulating components from Adobe (Photoshop) or Corel (Paintshop Pro) or an Open Source project (GIMP)...
    • Some vector graphics editor components from Xara (Xara Xtreme) or Corel (Corel Draw) or Adobe (Adobe Illustrator)...
    • Some 3D graphics editor/render components from Autodesk (3ds Max/Maya), Maxon, DAZ (Hexagon), McNeel (Rhinoceros) or an Open Source Project (POV-Ray or Blender)...


    He had developed a great concept. And he was a personality with the necessary money to realize this concept.

    But in reality it seems a little bit to complicated to develop such a software solution - even for Bill Gates, the visionary behind this thoughts.

    Regards,
    Remi

    see also: Wikipedia article about Software componentry
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  7. #17
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    To Albacore,

    The newest version of DRAW X3 can handle spot color in shadows, and all types of transparency with spot color as well as spot color in blends, using the new bevel tool and the mesh tool. And translates this into .pdf with correct spot color too, including to plate. I know, I do it every day. It is a big improvement over 12. However, there are some inconsistencies that keep some users from using X3, but if you play to its strengths, it is a very powerful tool.

    Viewing plates is much easier, you get a much larger view, if there is something wrong you can zoom right in and know what needs to be changed.

    InDesign like Illustrator has only half of the gradient tools and handles transparency like Illustrator. It can handle creep for long publications and manages memory much better than DRAW, but DRAW isn't in competition for books, booklets and leaflets, brochures, business cards, in other words, smaller publications.

    If you were doing the impositions for gang runs on large CMYK presses, you'd be using InDesign.

    Quark is losing ground it seems. Even though InDesign is challenging to learn, it is easier to use than Quark. As of yet I haven't used the newest version.

    The best thing about Illustrator is its brushes and support in all for pen tablets, it has nice borders. The part that really keeps me from wanting to use it more is in selecting items to edit. The layers palette doesn't really help you locate what you need. It is easier to add to a selection than to subtract from it.

    I often get in designs in Illy to have to impose, half of the work is off the art board, which makes doing imposition all the harder. Printing isn't just done one at a time, but as many as you can get on the paper for economy sake, you don't want overlap of artwork as it can cause distortions on the plate. We get a lot of work in in Illy and the part we print in house, is nearly always in need of correction. Colleges teaching the next breed of designers don't teach enough about how things are printed to make work coming in at all press ready. It is harder to do an impostion when the tolerances are not as precise. It is easier to do it by the numbers when you have them always in front of you, when you have little leeway for error, I will do the imposition in DRAW because it trims right. Yes, I can get right on the money at 800% zoom, but it takes more time. And my job is all deadlines. I have to choose what is the fastest program for the job I have to do.

    Presses have gripper, you can't print right up to the edge of the paper, if you are having things numbered, you have to allow room as a numbering machine has more potential for error than say a trimmer which is dialed in to be far more accurate digitally. When you have two up, you have to have double the page margin between them so they cut correctly. So I get to fix it. When I notify the customer that the work isn't correct, they often send back the exact same thing. Conclusion: they don't know the difference between CYMK green and Pantone 361, as long as it looks black, they don't look to see if it is 100% black. Very few call and find out the margins we use and gripper margins or to ask for a template. I get in work that is anything but ready to go out, one image off the web, next to another that is 800 dpi. If the designers who are using Illy are proving anything, at least 50% of them need a prepressman to fix their work or it isn't going to print at all. And this doesn't get better with service bureaus either, which kick back work with spot color in it, even in an Illustrator file which they will accept, but it costs $65.00 for them to fix it. So I preflight everything I get in, check height and width, when there are so many problems, you begin to wonder. Yes, service bureaus don't take files from Publisher, but if you are sophisticated enought to use AI, why can't they do it right?

    We get in work just a badly from the local college except for one instructor who knows his stuff. We get tiffs sent in in CMYK and they look blue because they want us to print in Reflex Blue. They think I am being grumpy when I tell them we need vector art, because we do charge for reworking their artwork, and of course people haven't budgeted for this. We often end up fixing it anyway but do try to get the customer to comply first. Even in Illustrator we get .jpegs that are supposed to be color separations.

    My conclusion: that CMYK is being taught, and that's about it. But there is much that is printed everyday which is spot color and for the smaller printing business where people are striving for sticking to a budget, it is going to remain a part of business. Spot color isn't just another palette to pick a pretty color from.

    Yes, there are those who know what they are doing. If it isn't the program, it is the users. But I have to also wonder why they can't see their errors or why they can't check it with a .pdf, most of them have Acrobat Professional. Print preview could show more.

    We do a lot of newsletters and they are always spot color. One of our clients send us files out of Quark and they just end up sending us .pdf with all work in black. We've gotten Illy files from the local newspaper in to be printed in like manner because they didn't know how to send spot color separations.

    If it is so great, why so many mistakes and by people who ought to know?

    My point is, it should be easier to see where the problems are. That it is unclear for the user costs the printing industry a lot of profit.

    It is true that many shops turn away artwork coming in if it is CorelDRAW, we use DRAW and prefer work to arrive in .pdf because we may have a slightly different version of the font and it can change the pagination.

    Whatever the program, print preview should be better understood. At least when people were printing their separations they knew what their colors were. No one does this any more, paper is cheaper than printing plates, I do it to check that work is okay. As of yet, I have not seen anyone send us a file in Illy that ever overprints a light screen of the spot color. Much easier for the pressman to not have to deal with knocked out type unless it is CMYK, then that is the way to do it. So it is very different. But designers should know, I don't know how they get a degree and don't know what they should. Whether or not you have a postscript printer attached to your computer, it would be ideal to have a separations print preview. It would be nice if the whole world were so rich they didn't know what not to buy next, the rest of us, live on a budget. I don't have a post script printer at home. So if I design at home, I am going to look at it in DRAW because there is a print preview even when my output is to my Epson printer.
    Last edited by sallybode; 17 July 2006 at 05:30 AM.
    Every day's a new day, "draw" on what you've learned.

    Sally M. Bode
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  8. #18
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Sally, I think the reason for so many so called designers making mistakes is that they don't send enough items to the printers with the modern laser it is so easy just to use that and they seldom think in CMYK and the separate plates, and with Illy since the intro of CS I find it difficult to make mistakes since you get such a comprehensive report in the printing dialogue in both RGB and CMYK and thats before any preflight.

    Don't complain too much about setting up for large sheet printing thats what keep you in a job and as for spot colours thats money in the printers pocket for nothing. Mind you I find hard to believe that folk send you items to be printed and its not even on the Art Board, now that is silly.

    I hope tthis forum takes off as Illustrator World at the moment is so limitted so therefore few folk are using it.
    Design is thinking made visual.
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  9. #19
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    The part which makes me irked at a some of the users is that they don't understand what I am talking about, they resave the file and nothing has changed. I've had some argue that there is nothing wrong with the file and that they sent it to another printer and there was no problem. And if I knew what I am doing, (he-hmm), that there'd be no problem. And then they add, it is solely that I am not using a MAC.

    We do end up correcting their file, I should say that I end up correcting the file and send them back the corrected file, so that if they re-run it at a later date, it will hopefully be correct.

    We send it back corrected so they don't argue about the extra charge. Yes, you can don't have to print the extra plates out, if you are using red which is 100% yellow and 100% yellow, either plate can be printed as spot, but not if you have a color which is mixed, the result on the press is NG.

    And as far as money in the printers pocket, it is the time a job takes, not necessarily the number of plates, the plates may cost as little as two dollars each, so the difference between a three color spot job and four process color job is not that much. It is the payment on the press, if the printer owns the press, but spot color jobs for low runs per unit are about the same cost as offset at high yield runs. And they aren't for gratis, short runs, unless you are using the same spot colors mean washing up the press frequently. All of that time equals labor. It isn't like running a color copier where the set up is the same no matter.

    And no I am not being silly about crap on the artboard or jobs off the artboard all together, you have to hunt for them. We have one design firm that does it that way all the time and cannot be told differently.

    As far as prepres mistakes out of InDesign, so long as people do not use the tools to warn them about how they are making their .pdf, there are going to be mistakes.

    Often a company logo is designed in spot color as it is going on letterhead, envelope, any other stationery, but then is put on a four color business card or brochure. Placing it there doesn't change that it is spot color and the .pdf can be set to change the spot to process. On business cards it is always best to convert to outlines or curves. But InDesign users find it difficult to get rid of the spot color. Even though what they used is converted to CMYK color, about 30% of the time they have trouble with this.

    The prepress we run, we don't charge the customer for, normally, and if it were all curves, I could fix their file. We have run the job from CYMK .tif because the InDesign user didn't know how to fix the file.

    It saves time delay to view the file in Acrobat Professional before it is sent out, so that if there is a problem, you fix it before it is sent. This goes for output from all programs. Some printers charge as much as $65.00 an hour to fix the file and if the file is fixed by the customer, it is $32.00 for resubmittal. It pays to be careful.
    Every day's a new day, "draw" on what you've learned.

    Sally M. Bode
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: The very first thread

    Sally, I dont' quiet understand what's going on with the printing issue there.

    In here, I make a CMYK, close it as a pdf and send it to a printer shop. He prints an example with the Aeries machine (or fiery or whatever). I show it to the customer and.... yes or no. I don't pay extra even if I need to run 3 or 4 tests.
    I have adobe acrobat 6 professional so regardless of what program I'm using (I even made many jobs solely on MS word since it was all text that someone else started and quit in the middle) I just print that out.

    Sure there are mistakes but nobody is expecting such a perfection even in big dimension print jobs.
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