I don't mean to rain on parades, but serious people please listen!

[shawnsat]

I am risking sounding like a pompous ass to most people here, but there are some with talent that might listen. I don't want to tout where I've been or what I've done (here it is if you want to see me put my money where my mouth is - http://www.sandsdesigns.com ) but I think I see a problem with Painter users and computer users in general. Just because your latest program has an image hose that paints trees, doesn't make you a landscape artist. Please people, use these new tools the way no one would expect, we can all spray the nozzel randomly on the canvas! And we all have! We just don't all post it as our latest fine art! I don't mean to degrade or desrespect anyone, I just want to see that we can (and I know we can) do better than the paint, the pencil, the software; whatever we choose as a tool. The use of a good tool marks a good artist, but it doesn't make him or her an artist!!!
SS

shawnsat
http://www.sandsdesigns.com
shawnsat@comcast.net

[shawnsat]

I am risking sounding like a pompous ass to most people here, but there are some with talent that might listen. I don't want to tout where I've been or what I've done (here it is if you want to see me put my money where my mouth is - http://www.sandsdesigns.com ) but I think I see a problem with Painter users and computer users in general. Just because your latest program has an image hose that paints trees, doesn't make you a landscape artist. Please people, use these new tools the way no one would expect, we can all spray the nozzel randomly on the canvas! And we all have! We just don't all post it as our latest fine art! I don't mean to degrade or desrespect anyone, I just want to see that we can (and I know we can) do better than the paint, the pencil, the software; whatever we choose as a tool. The use of a good tool marks a good artist, but it doesn't make him or her an artist!!!
SS

shawnsat
http://www.sandsdesigns.com
shawnsat@comcast.net

[RAMWolff44]

I think, Shawn, that this sort of post belongs in a all the forums. I for one feel very much like a cheat if I am using nozzles or stamps or any sort of 'brush' like that in my work. My work is my work and if I have to study tutorials, brush up on my freehand drawing skills (on real paper with real pencil and eraser http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) or scour the web looking for photographs for reference I do so.

We all can pop out fun 3D buttons and this and that in moments but take the time to really push your creative self to produce stuff that you can really call your own, on and off of the computer. Digital art should NOT be taken lightly. If it is then do you really think the art industry on whole is going to really be able to take any digital artist seriously??

Another friend here on TG, Steve, who also is a member of Pixelparity where I moderate (well, lately there really seems to be no reason to moderate http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ) posted a question and a true example of why a digital artist MUST prove to him/her self and to the art industry as well that creating a painting or 3D model or what ever on the computer is just as valid as getting out a pencil/pen/paint brush and applying it to paper/board/canvas and creating something from any number of ideas floating around in ones mind, from still life to fantastical space scenes. It's all relative to what the person can accomplish on and off of the computer.

Yes, I agree, next time you use a nozzle or stamp and then sign your name to the finished image, it's nice and it's beautiful but did you put 100% of your own talent into this image or was it pre-produced in many ways for you already? I agree that trees are not all that easy, nor animals but that is what true dedication to any given art project is all about. It's not only an expression of ones imagination but it's a learning process as well and when one learns and then accomplishes something positive with the information then the finished product is shown with real pride, knowing that it was all their doing and know one elses!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

I'm certainly not saying that the person reading this thread is not capable of being a true artist but just be honest with your self. I love all these cool things too but I honestly dont' think I have any thing out there on the web that was not 100% from ME and only ME (maybe one or two images with MINIMAL "props" that someone else put together but most of the time I just take the time to do it myself and if I need a brush or a stamp then I make my own!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif )!!

Thanks for bringing this up Shawn!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Richard http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://www.ramwolffsworld.com//Publi..._Prowl_sig.gif

http://www.ramwolffsworld.com/RAMWolffsWorld

[Thelonious]

howdy ramwolff and shawnsat.

I would suggest that the opinions you have of what constitutes art is predictable and somewhat naive. I wonder why it matters to you how anyone uses painter, as long as they are not stealing someone elses art.

Also there is another way to look at the appropriation of existing images. Not only can one make ones own hoses, but an intuitive artist can produce something remarkable from the ordinary.

for example check this post out by Sunny, http://talkgraphics.infopop.net/1/Op...1&m=2501990154 it uses some homemade image hoses to spectacular effect.

[RTK]

I can't see why how something was made matters in any way? Suffering, and thousands of hours of agony doesn't necessaraly make something more interesting to a viewer. The creator might get more satisfaction out of finishing something like that, but a viewer will just see the end result. All that matters in the end, is the finished piece. If it looks interesting - more power to you!

Shawn, I fail to see the point you are trying to make?

Risto

risto@ristoklint.com

Visit my web site!

[OklaEd]

O' ... the tortured psyche of the sensitive Arteeest!

As John Stossel would say ... Give me a Break. Did Picasso worry about how his "style" would be received by the "art" world when he created STARRY NIGHT? ... Was Madonna trying to please the "purists" of the music industry when she developed her personna? ... I think not.

What makes a Monet better than a Manet? Truely Manet was the purer "Artist" since he developed his own style and subject matter ... Monet was one of at least 12 French impressionists who studied together and all painted the same subject matter in VERY similar styles. The difference is that a Monet painting will bring MUCH more at auction than a Manet of the same size and condition.

What is the point? ... UTILITY. If I produce a graphic for myself ... and I like it ... it is good art. If I produce a graphic for a car dealership ... and it sells cars (or brings people in) ... it is good art. If it is created for the public at large ... and it evokes an emotion or reaction ... is it NOT good art? What difference does it matter how the image was created ... and why should anyone care?

If you recall Galileo was forced to denounce his theory of the "earth being round" by the PURISTS ... who would have no such nonsense.

-Ed.

[Grafixman]

I use the image hose whenever it is needed. Not because I'm lazy, but because it fills a need. I understand your view on overusing it, but then you'd be out there waging war on dropshadows and bevels, too http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.
Lighten up, man.
You're serious about your work, but sometimes, you make something just for fun. Then you let your imagination run wild and flush down everything you learned about art down the toilet. So what? Many of those same ideas they teach you at school originated by random experimentation.

[RAMWolff44]

All good points!! I just happen to believe that "suffering" (as Risto put it http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif ) gives me more satisfaction than taking short cuts.

As I said, in XaraX I sure do love my drop shadows, bevels and other effects (RealDraw-Pro with it's 3D lights and mump maps) but when it gets down to the nitty gritty I go all the way "from the ground up" and I find it fun and adventurous as well as satisfying.

If someone uses a nozzle/stamp/what ever to help create an image that causes an emotional responce in the viewer then more power to them but wouldn't it be better to create your own and use them to your hearts content?? It's all yours and if you share with the community and see it in someone elses work then you know it's appreciated and all the hard work producing it is even more satisfying!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Steve Newport started a thread over at Pixelparity a little while back and I FINALLY found the darned thing. It's a pretty good read if your interested: *discussion* Digital Arts As I stated in my contribution to that thread, I totally understood his extreme disapointment but at the same time I know that traditional art is what's mostly accepted. If the serious digital artist is to make the art industry accept this medium as valid then to me and my work it's got to be all me or why bother. For fun web interfaces and buttons and other vector stuff I usually use drop shadows (which I could easily create myself but I don't) or a bevel (which I could build myself as well but I don't) but when it comes to the use of the object brushes in XaraX I usually steer clear of them unless I created it myself, then of course I will use it but actually I forget to use stuff like that most of the time anyway!! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

In the end it comes down to: "Each to their own". Be creative using what's available or be creative working from the ground up. I prefer the latter for most of my work!! Nuff' said! http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Richard http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://www.ramwolffsworld.com//Publi..._Prowl_sig.gif

http://www.ramwolffsworld.com/RAMWolffsWorld

[This message was edited by RAMWolff on March 18, 2004 at 17:58.]

[Judi A]

I don't like Image Hoses or Tubes as they are called in PSP because they keep repeating an image in a very un-natural way especially when used in landscapes i.e. you see the same tree or group of trees over and over again when there are no two trees alike. If you are creating a design, where a repeat pattern is desirable then I suppose they could be useful. It would be the same as duplicating a vector shape, but those are pretty easy to see too, even when flipped or rotated.

If you want to just have fun playing around, then go for any plug-in you find interesting.

http://fasolt.mtcc.com/~mom/xsquirrel.gif


My Stuff

[RTK]

Richard,

Art, as in hanging in galleries, and museums, will always be in traditional media, one-of-a-kind-art... IMHO... Yes, one might argue that photography is as easily reproduced as a digital print - but hey, the cheapest Picasso painting equals all photography existing on the planet... (almost... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Why even strive for "art" when working digital? Art as in "hanging-in-galleries-art" when you can create imagery/designs under the strict (or not) guidelines of art directors of major magazines and make good money - if you are really good at what you do?

You can also make a lot of money on marketing prints/designs if you create something that people really want... why worry about "Fine (gallery) Art?!"

I don't get it? http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Also, to clarify - I'm not a "Fine artist http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" nor am I an "accomplished illustrator/desiger http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" - to me, creating my pictures, is just a hobby, I do it for my own enjoyment - mostly http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif...

I have been lucky enough to being able to license/sell to some design agencies and private individuals (without going out there - they found me), but does it pay enough to feed my kids - not even close... However, the time I spend drawing is more productive than watching TV... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Also, I have learned a lot - should I ever get more time drawing my silly pictures. More importantly, I have learned a lot about how to go about finding the people that would like to use/have the silly things that I draw.

Having someone ask you to come up with something specific/that works - is a real reality check - I tell you! I really, really admire people that do this for a living!

None the less, I would never want to subject myself to the selling skills of a gallery representative - I would rather make/mess up my own fate with what the things I do...

Steve Newport, who you mentioned, is unbelievable skilled. He is just a kid (Sorry, Steve - you will ALWAYS be a kid to me - EVEN when you have kids of your own... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif) but he will develope skills that people will pay for - I'm sure. Will his creations hang in galleries and museums - probaly not - but will he care when he drives his Ferrari up to one of his houses - I don't think so... http://www.talkgraphics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Risto

risto@ristoklint.com

Visit my web site!