because I can't paint

[athena]

hello Jinny,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> read through another couple of complaining messages (added to at least a dozen more I've read today). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's tough when you get lambasted for stuff that isn't even your fault. (and arguably you have no control over)

please don't take it personally. we all have those days where we get blamed just for breathing air.

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

but look. some messages are simply valid user complaints. if a user considers herself good at deciphering graphics programs and finds a feature that requires more than the usual research . . .I think that is a valid user complaint.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> just an empty complaint <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see any empty complaints here in this thread. the Painter user base is varied. The personalities are varied . . it is understandable that it is difficult to write a program that satisfies everyone. BUT that doesn't mean that the Painter developers shouldn't try to impress the most people that they can. and how will they possibly know anyone is dissatisfied with their vector tools if no one speaks up?

OK so your experience with Illustrator yields a very small jump to using the vector tools in Painter. Obviously, you're the kind of userbase that Painter was written for. But that doesn't negate the needs of the others who are also adept at deciphering graphics programs and who also pay for Painter and are more comfortable with Corel Draw and Xara Vector tools. Corel Draw and Xara make vector easy. But . . . I say that because I grew up using them. Someone from the Illustrator background may very well throw up his or her hands in dismay at Corel Draw and Xara functionality. I feel really sorry that Painter could get caught between two user bases like that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> took less than a half hour to figure out (and that's a bit long, in my book).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. the feature should not be so convoluted that you had to spend that much time deciphering it. You're no dunce and neither am I. Ideally, painter developers are listening in on discussions like this and not waiting to hear it 2nd hand from you or someone else. Ideally, they would have the nerve to sign in and speak up. I can't speak for Corel or Corel Painter developers. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] they probably wouldn't want me to anyway.

But I can't believe that I'm the only person in all of Painterdom who finds the vector tools in Painter to be convoluted. I also doubt that I'm the most stubborn Painter user who refuses to fiddle with something that doesn't fit the paradigm that I'm accustomed to. (I bet others feel the same way)

When you started working on figuring that particular issue out, did you think in advance that you would end up spending 30 min? I bet you thought 5 min tops. THAT is what I am faulting Painter for. . . .and you happen to be part of the user base they wrote that version for .... the Illustrator users. If I'm coming from a different paradigm you better believe it WILL take me longer than you to get to the same answer. . I shouldn't be expected to work that hard to make a feature work. and most certainly you shouldn't either.

The way I see it is, I have a way to work around the problems I have with the Painter vector tools so I use the resources I have to get the job done. and to the Painter developers, I say "come back to me when you have this feature straightened out. I don't have time to be pliable and re-learn a set of habits that work perfectly well for me in other vector apps"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No, it's not brave of me to try to help out. It is plain stupid sometimes and a big waste of my time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok. I'm sensing that you feel you have an un-appreciative audience here. Not so. Admittedly we have a number of visitors who silently watch. and rarely sign in to thank you for your time. But your work is very helpful. I still remember that time you did some tuts on the vector tools when we were talking about dab based brushes. Whether those were just what I needed or just enough to get me going in the right direction, in either case they were very valuable and very appreciated. And whether you enlightened Thelonious or myself to a bit of the painter vector arcanum, is immaterial. Somewhere somewhen there is a user who will or has read that message and thinks,"aha! thank you, Jinny" whether they ever bother to log in and tell you that . . well that is something neither of us can control.

I confess, I have not tried your steps above yet. my last attempt at the vector tool still leaves a bitter taste in my mind. (this is not your fault) I do think that I remember what I was doing wrong all along. . I was double clicking to finish a shape. Why, on God's green earth did I do that? I don't know. somewhere, somewhen, that entered into my spatial memory as what you do to finish off a shape. I still need to research which program burned that habit into my synapses. I suspect an antiquated version of Corel DRAW (i've been using it since version 3). So maybe I'm still resenting Painter for having the sanity to only require one click to finish the shape. When I went back and tried finishing shapes in my most current versions of Corel DRAW and Xara for comparison, I think they accepted either one click or two . . . but I know that habit came from somewhere. It is just too peculiar a habit to have come from thin air.

So, hmmmm I'm not sure what we've resolved here. I do respect the time you put into your answers. I think it is important for all visitorsto realize that many well phrased responses take time to compose. Time that could be spent playing with the cats, laughing with your family, or cleaning the closet. And that right there is also a very important lesson.

Please forgive me for seeming uncaring.

Athena

[Thelonious]

6. Click again with the Pen tool to create anchor point 3, this time one inch directly below anchor point 1. Now the "ghost control handle" is visible and you can see that its position and length have caused the line between anchor point 2 and anchor point 3 to be curved.

There seems to be a communication breakdown here. I do not need a tutorial on using the vector tools, I know how they work. Referring to the above example, Before I click to create anchor point three I want to be able to SEE the handle I just drew so that I can visualise how my curve will be before I place my point.

Having handles disappear and reappear after you place a point can be something that you might accept but it will never be acceptable.

I don't know about you Jinny but experienced users of vector tools can visualise how a line will curve by looking at the handles. So being able to actually see the handle you have just drawn, which is going to influence where you place your point seems to me a normal expectation.

I cannot see any reason for this strange anomaly in Painter that serves no purpose at all and makes it a total waste of time to bother with Painer's vector tools at all.

No-one in their right mind could want handles that you need to see, disappear. I seem to think that if users would just state the obvious in a unified voice maybe, just maybe Corel would fix it so that we don't have to keep leaving Painter to work on an image.

Jinn you may say to me that you have gotten used to being blind but I will never accept that you would prefer to be blind. Same thing with the "ghost handle"

T

[Jinny Brown]

Athena,

After writing such a lengthy message, you may deserve some kind of response from me. It's going to be a short one, however, since I get no pleasure from continuing discussion about complaints that would be better sent to Corel either directly or on some list or newsgroup they actually do read.

"that's tough when you get lambasted for stuff that isn't even your fault. (and arguably you have no control over)"

No one lambasted me.

This part is my personal feeling:

I am tired of reading complaints that are sent not to be read by those who can do anything about them, but to those who can't even if they wanted to. I'm tired of a handful of people in the Painter Community whose messages of late are at least 80% compaint and contain little contribution of a positive nature.

By my own own choosing, a great many hours of my days and nights are spent reading and responding to Painter related messages along with other Painter-related activities. If any Painter gathering place becomes one where the balance of complaint vs. learning and enjoying Painter is tipped toward complaint, it's no longer enjoyable for me and a waste of my time. There are enough places where learning and enjoying Painter are the central theme and when there are problems, members either work to find a solution or contact the responsible parties (Corel).

Whether or not I am "appreciated" is not the issue. What I do is not done so that I'll be appreciated, but to share something I love and see others enjoy it too. The issue is how I prefer to spend my time and energies.


Thelonious,

It didn't occur to me that a person using the Pen tool could not retain a mental image of a control handle from one click to the next, having just placed that control handle himself.

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________

[Thelonious]

>something I love

Well this explains a lot, they say that love is blind.

Jinny read my lips, Corel do not respod to complaints.

>I am tired of reading complaints that are sent not to be read by those who can do anything about them

Jinny you *can* do something about the very legitimate complaints that many have about Painter. That is add your support so that Corel will see a united front of users who deserve to have their complaints answered. Instead in your blind love of Painter you discount and thereby diminish any effect that these complaints would have on the very arrogant Corel.

You saying >It didn't occur to me that a person using the Pen tool could not retain a mental image of a control handle from one click to the next, having just placed that control handle himself. Is like saying, let them eat cake.

It is disingenuous of you to say this, yes I can make an OK guess where and how long my handle was, but as I am very good at judging the effect of handles on beziers I like to SEE the (expletive deleted) handle. Do you have a problem with this. Is there any reason at all that you can come up with that would necessitate the handle to vanish until after you make your next point.

It is because of your (and others like you) acceptance of the Vis Mask doing destructive edits that Corel won't do anything about it.

Has it not occured to you that others also like Painter a lot? so much so that if our complaints were addressed then we wouldn't have to leave Painter to do work in other programs when the broken tools are actually available in Painter. It is not good for concentration to have to exit Painter all the time to do something elsewhere.

What part of the above don't you understand. Corel take our money and it is incumbent upon them to serve us (not in the Steinbeckian context) It is not for us to go cap in hand to Corel and to gratefully accept third rate tools because they deign to make a Paint program.

thelonious

[Jinny Brown]

Thelonious,

You have made a few assumptions about me and what I have or have not done, which are uninformed and mistaken. In addition, you obviously do not have the same experience that I have when asking for assistance from Corel or registering a complaint or suggestion. Though it's doubtful that what I'm going to say will make any difference in your thinking, I will say it so that anyone else who may be reading this knows the facts.

1. Corel does respond to me and to my requests for either assistance or to messages I've sent listing things that are not working (along with suggested solutions). This is not to say that I always receive a response or that those I receive come as quickly as I'd like. It is to say that the majority of the time, Corel has responded, not only courteously, but with either an immediate or follow up resolution. Often, they have gone out of their way to be of assistance not only to me directly, but indirectly to Painter users with whom I interact. Like most Painter users, I have been exasperated at some of Corel's blunders (i.e. the way their website frequently doesn't work, or the freebie images that were too small to be of any use.. until that problem was fixed).

For the most part, my observation and experience with Corel shows me that they are trying very hard to continue improving Painter, make a good product, and also to improve their reputation as a software company. As with any individual, I also am inclined to give credit to a company that is doing what it can to improve and correct errors.

2. Long before you and I "met", and very shortly (a week or so) after Corel purchased Painter, I called Corel (on my own dime from California to Canada and without benefit of their toll free number) to discuss how we could develop a friendly and productive dialog right from the start, between Painter users and Corel concerning not only the current version, but the Painter 7 upgrade which was already in progress at the time.

Because Painter users urgently wanted to convey their concerns, issues, and suggestions to Corel, I offered to set up a database for these comments by Painter users in a location where Corel could see them organized and easy to read, and at any time of day or night.

The Corel Graphics Dept. person I spoke with said that it would be very helpful pending setup of Corel's Painter newsgroups, and thanked me for offering. Once a manager was assigned to Painter, my communication continued with him (at the time, it was Doug Chomyn).

I set up the database at eGroups (now Yahoo! Groups) immediately after this conversation and notified all of the Painter related lists/boards/forums/newsgroups to which I then subscribed (several). Members were invited and encouraged to enter their comments, concerns, issues, and suggestions. The database was set up with tables that mirrored the Painter menus, menu options, and palettes... one table for each. In addition, there were other tables for items that did not fit in either the menu, menu options, or palette categories, in order to cover everything people wanted to communicate to Corel.

Quite a number of Painter users participated in this effort and covered many of the issues the wider Painter community of users had said they hoped to see resolved in Painter 7, along with a good many suggestions for additional improvements.

Once the Corel Painter newsgroups were set up, I extracted the information from the database, reformated it in InDesign, and send a PDF file to Corel. Not only did Doug Chomyn let me know that he'd received it, with thanks, but many months later, I had the pleasure of meeting Mark Zimmer ("inventor" of Painter) when he gave a talk and demonstration of Painter at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto, CA and he volunteered without prompting from me that he'd received the PDF file.

Some of the most often requested items are now included in Painter 7 (i.e. variable zoom, painting with watercolor on Layers, more flexibility in managing palettes, etc.)

3. In the months since Corel purchased Painter, I've had an ongoing communication with Tanya Staples both via e-mail and by phone in which we've discussed many subjects regarding Painter and various customer relations topics. She has always been friendly, helpful, and responsive and is one who has gone far out of her way to be of assistance. For the most part, the phone calls have been made at my personal expense which during the working day is noticeable in my phone bill.

In addition, I have also corresponded with the Marketing Dept. about various problems with the website, freebies, etc. Again, the correspondence from them has been courteous, friendly, responsive, and helpful.

I do not lie down and accept things that can be improved. I work very hard 7 days a week to improve them, both directly and indirectly.

Those are a few facts that, again, I don't expect will make a bit of difference in your thinking, Thelonious. In fact, it would surprise me if you didn't come back energized with even more contrary comments. That is your choice. Mine has been to set the record straight.

Can anyone here say that they put more time, effort, and care into making Painter users' experience an enjoyable one? Can anyone here say that they put more time, effort, and personal expense into communication with Corel about subjects that do not affect them directly but do affect the wider Painter community?

What, exactly, do you do along these lines, Thelonious? Do you work directly with Corel in a dialog that may help to improve the software and also the Painter users' experience? How much of your personal time and money have you spent contacting Corel to help improve things (beyond your own personal complaints)?

A response to those questions is not needed.

You sure do have a way about you, Thelonious. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Have a wonderful weekend, everyone. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
________________________

[Thelonious]

Jinny dear,
You are like a pool of high octane rocket fuel, just asking to be flamed. however I, by an incredible effort of pure will, will refrain. (sort of)

I will answer you though, in gory detail, so that our less serious younger viewers can have a larf and also to really annoy you because I think that you deserve it.

First though, just because Corel pander to you does not mean that they are making a genuine effort to fix their bug ridden program(s). In fact I actually had a reply from Tanya Staples about the Vis Mask (finally). Her reply was that Corel have done nothing to it for P7 and that they may possibly do something about it in P8. Tanya also claims that it is not meant to be like Photoshop's layer mask. This is plainly rubbish. As there is no warning in the manual that after inviting you to edit the Vis Mask that you will destroy your layer. ie they don't tell you to copy your layer first. Since they indicate that it only affects the visibility of the layer, I see no mention that it adds pixels to the layer that did not exist before. Face it the Vis Mask is an idiotic mess inherited from Metacreations and Corel don't have the wherewithall to fix it.

Jinny we legitemately complain that the handle disappears and you respond with a tutorial on beziers as if we don't know how to use them, I don't know why you expect a medal for this sort of reply.

But here goes anyway, Jinny you are a hero. Tirelessly scouring the forums of the earth (and probably probing deep space for all I know) directing the unwary incessantly to your website, where the hapless victim has to wade through laboured explanations to finally get to some good bits, and there *are* some good bits. It's your site you can do what the hell you want. But don't expect applause.

Some people might give you the respect that you crave some might not. That's life, one cannot demand respect. You get it or you don't It is not something to be demanded.

And you also cannot complain when your sanctimonious replies get responded to like this. Blah Blah Blah etc .....

"Can anyone here say that they put more time, effort, and care into making Painter users' experience an enjoyable one? Can anyone here say that they put more time, effort, and personal expense into communication with Corel about subjects that do not affect them directly but do affect the wider Painter community?

"What, exactly, do you do along these lines, Thelonious? Do you work directly with Corel in a dialog that may help to improve the software and also the Painter users' experience? How much of your personal time and money have you spent contacting Corel to help improve things (beyond your own personal complaints)?"

The above quote from you is truly pathetic, and really needs no response as it speaks volumes about your negagtive self image..blah blah...

BTW there's still plenty of room for the famous "last word"

Have and industrious and happy day.

T.

[freebird]

Nice pics to theo. Just the type of pics I like to do. Don't consider myself much of a painter or drawer. All are nice but esp. like the 1st one.

My 2cents roar from the peanut gallery of painter users agrees with you. Often I expletively wondered why they made certain functions so expletively overly-complicated. I honestly came to think they did it just to be different.

[Thelonious]

Thanks for your comment Freebird.
These are from my early forays into Painter. I can't draw to save my life and Painter for me was always going to be a program where I could do stuff that I liked and could express myself in an arty way even though I can't draw.

At first I was overawed by Painter. I saw the chrome pumpkin in the manual and I was very impressed. Words like "brush engine" sounded so cool. Foolishly without any real knowledge I came to the conclusion that Painter was this absolutely amazing program with millions of things in it that would be amazing when I finally learned them.

Unfortunately the more I came to know painter the more I realised what a shambles it is. Coincidentally it all started with the bottom one of the three images. When I attempted to make the hoop go behind the image. You can't see it on the tiny reproduction above but this is where I got my first rude awakening to how crap some of the functions in Painter really are. I attempted to hide the hoop with the Vis Mask. It took me a few hours to come to the conclusion that there was something radically wrong with the operation of the Vis Mask. This sent me on a bit of a personal crusade because I wasted so much time and effort all because Painter pretend that it is like a layer mask.

I love the bevel world because it enables me to make something extraordinary out of something ordinary but then I soon learned that it is excruciating to use. Sometimes just trying to nudge a control would mean a five minute wait with no way to exit. I've recently discovered more things wrong, as I try to work around this problem. Like I try to bevel a piece of the image to test it but it bevels differently to the whole image. Meanwhile Photoshop massively improve their bevel dialog and the effects are instantaneous while you test it out, then it renders at the end.

Recently I decided to give the scripts a go and to my dismay I discover that they only work when they feel like it.

Then there is the completely idiotic zoom that goes from 100% to 200% so you can have an image that is either too big or too small. Big deal, it is infinate in P7, it should have been a patch anyway, not to mention that from the posts I've seen it doesn't seem to work properly anyway.

It gets worse the more one explores, I've always wanted to get into the weaving but I am too afraid because I've been burnt so many times. I know it will be very hard work to get the hang of it and I am afraid that if I devote the time to learn it I will find that it doesn't work properly.

The Well Palette is where a lot of important modifications to brushes are made and although the controls do seem to make sense sometimes they just don't seem right. And I'm not sure if they aren't working properly or if I'm doing something wrong.

It takes a fair bit of effort to realise that there is something wrong with a particular aspect of Painter and the tendency is for the user to give the benefit of the doubt to Painter and think that they must be at fault. Because of this most problems look like they will never be sorted out. Especially when some users who don't really understand that it is the duty of the software manufacturer to fix their product with continuous patches, continue to accept this shoddy service and tell us that we should be grateful that the software exists in the first place.

When I look at Photoshop I see a company that takes pride in releasing a well engineered product. Even ZBrush which has one of the most useful and active forums I've seen, has the inventor taking an active interest, and bug problems addressed. But Corel doesn't have to do anything of the sort because it seems to have a ready made bunch of obsequious fanatics who see any complaint as an act of treachery that must be defended to the death.

So here we have Corel Painter 7 and it looks just as bad from what I've been able to glean as Painter 6. The colour management looks good but why should I think it works. I certainly do not have any faith left in Corel. Especially as they have the temerity to blithely state that they havn't even considered doing anything about the Visibility Mask issue. Corel are so arrogant and they will get what they deserve.

Hiding behind a new name, Procreate, will not help, there needs to be some substance behind the hype. A bunch of new watercolours will not undo the damage. I would be happy to pay for an upgrade to fix all the problems with Painter 6.

Corel had no business releasing P7 yet. We should have P6.5 first that fixes the bugs.

I guess if you are an artist who doesn't want bevels or scripts or layer masks or beziers and you don't want to use the complicated controls then Painter is great. You can just take something like the smeary brush and go for it. But as the professional solution that it professes to be, Painter is a dismal failure, not for want of ideas but for the poor execution of them.

end of rant.

Here's a close up of the top image.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

thelonious

[freebird]

I also was trying to do unpainterly things in Painter and was led to believe it was not just for painters and freehand drawing. It is nice to find a bird of a feather in a painter forum. Not to exclude painters and people who can draw here as I respect your talents and also enjoy looking at your pics but I just like to do my own more comfortable thing in Painter...and so I esp. enjoy seeing something that is more similar to what I try to do.

My birdbrain opinion is that forums should be for users to discuss all aspects of a program (even problems with it)and exchange ideas. I think you have very valid complaints and I am glad you put them here. For a long time I thought something was wrong with me for not being able to do anything in it and I constantly struggle trying to understand Painter and how it works. Photoshop may have a steep learning curve but Painter seems like an unsurmountable mountain. I have no problem understanding Photoshop but feel like a lost babe in the woods whenever I try to do anything that I would like to do in Painter. Photoshop is a dependable and well-working program while Painter has been a nightmare on my system in addition to trying to figure out how it works.

Your last pic here was also very nice. I have a liking to these type of pics...you may even have inspired me to try Painter again for the 1000th time.

[athena]

FreebirdIt's wonderful to see all sorts of users join the Painter Forum.

Please feel free to ask questions, make comments, or just say hello.

Make yourself at home.

Athena

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Thelonious

I really like the close-up that you posted here. It looks very attractive. at that magnification, you can appreciate the texure on the background and the neon like effect on the rings. But my favorite in the close-up is the golden walkway. ..the gradients are so pretty. To me, that close up is more dynamic than the whole logo at the top. Just one person's opinion [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] . Maybe it's just that the gamma or brightness seems different . . .I don't know. . . but I do like that close up. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Athena
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]