food for your brain

[s.winders]

Life is about now not tomorrow,and its all the little nows which make up tomorrow.Live in the now and let the tomorows take care of themselves [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


Oh Paul very cool gems...forget to post a comment..doh! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]


Stu.

[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I understand you correctly, you think it is no sense in creating and rendering a lanscape 'model' just because you do or can?!? Why not seeing it as a landscape painting? People do paint landscapes, even without real life models (=sitting out on a field painting what they see around them). Do these paintings make no sense too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. But these paintings make sense because they show an impression the artist had when he painted the picture. He didn't want to copy nature or even surpass it. Ok, Michelangelo and some other 'artists' made stunning paintings - looking almost real. But not in terms of details, but in terms of mood. Actually they left out details which made their paintings look so real - painted by heart, not by CAD knowledge.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And you could say the same thing about paintings - 'nothing but a helpless attempt to copy'.
The main difference here is that all people are not skilled painters (as well as all painters cannot use 3D computer applications). So while one do it with paint, brushes and canvas, other do it with computers. And I see it as recreation (the computer doesn't always have to be just a tool!), and I guess it doesn't have to make sense either in one way. I often doodle with pen and paper, and what I doodle doesn't make sense either I guess. But it feels good!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed - it feels great. I need one sketchblock per week <sigh>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, doodling (I would say you can also 'doodle' realistic doodles) can let you see things from another points of views, which can get handy in work (instead of beginning from scratch with every new project).
And if I continue with the artistic view on the matter, it is a challenge for the artist to achieve a real life look in the picture, and it is (at least in my case) the procedure of creating that gives the satisfaction, and not always the result. And I also believe that the work of making a program that can simulate real life gives the people at e-on software (maker of Vue d'Esprit) satisfaction as well as seeing the work of other people using their software. So I don't think it is so much about having control and playing God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with your view. But the point is that **you** have these thoughts and points of view, but the masses...?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The choise of re-creation distinguish between what one work with every day. And re-creation is as a result of that, the ability to do something that doesn't relate to work. In your case you go hiking, while I can see that a gardener who works outdoors most days can relax with a computer. Personally I work with computers every day, and often I don't even want to see a computer when I get home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I can't distinguish between work and leisure. It's my life, and I can't split it into different areas. In my leisure time I have great ideas and start sketching, take some pics and wake up the computers to 'play' with my ideas. And when I am 'working' I often leave the 'office', tour with my bycicle or walk through the forest... shame on me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>About our 'new' home, we bought it about 2 years ago (living in it for about a year and a half) and have been renovating since then (how's that for re-creation? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely fantastic! You will enjoy the fruits of your effort every single day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's not until now we see any result (the interior looks like the interior of a house and the garden starts to look like a garden [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). And yes, the summers are beautiful here in Finland (and the spring was also beautiful this year due exceptionally warm weather) and yes I have already been mosquito breakfast, lunch, snack and evening meal [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] . But I see the whole thing from the light view of point - it is not as bad in sothern Finland as it is in the northern part of the country (where the bugs are big as bird - at least that is what they say [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some day I will travel to Finland. My parents have been there 4 years ago, my father stayed there for a while after he escaped the Russian prison in WWII, and my neighbor is an engineer on a container vessel on a route from Hamburg to Helsinki. They told how beautiful it is there - even in the winter!

And about the bugs: yes, they are hughe. When you cross the border to Sweden you can see them crunching your 4x4 tires into tiny pieces ;-}, and while you stay there wondering what's going on the mosquitos torture you to hell ;-} - the bugs and the mosquitos have set up a perfect organization to get rid of the disturbing elements - us. Best of all: they don't need computers for this task - LOL

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
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[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don't forget that accepting optical illusions is conditioned by education. Just take language. The moment daddy told you "this is a tree", you lost the ability to see what *is* and you started seeing with the mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost true. It had been defined being a 'tree'. However, I was reluctant like hell to learn 'tree', 'animal' etc - I used my own words or descriptions for it. Until I went to school where I had been forced to even learn the names in German and Latin by heart.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another example: Aboriginals have no problem with the optical illusions we see as real, like lines bending etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bending line is a curve ;-}. It's something that is there just like the air we breathe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Another remark why this proggie could never work: emotion cannot be analysed. Even the greatest reductionnist scientifically trained psycho guy stays on the safer side of instincts.
Emotion is too complex for the mind, and only the mind can analyse. Time also only exists in the mind as for emotion and instinct there is only now.
So stop the tyrant called mind and things stop being a nightmare. Imo it is sick when you have to rely on someone else to dream. Perhaps that's why there are so many insomniacs...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time can exist in the emotion as well, because emotions have a past - best experienced in our dreams.

However to really prove it we must be able to understand the space/time curve. Is the space/time curve a hughe loop? At least **I** don't know and can't prove it.

Excellent thoughts!

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[Erik Heyninck]

Maybe the concept of reducing dreams to a "digesting" of what you had to suppress during waking hours is a simplification?
I won't talk too much about them, but my dreams are very logical and I can feel and think and make concious decisions in them. And when I am aware I'm dreaming (because I can float up and down at will) I can change everything I want, but limited to what I can imagine. So it's once again imagination and being able to focus/concentrate attention, or creativity and will-power that do the job.

[Crow Haven]

here they quite simply leave me speachless. I'm not a photographer, but I took this pic from the front porch deck this a.m.-----maybe you can get an idea of how it is---gorgeous!!! We live in the forest/hills, the area of Coos Bay is seen 5 miles in the distance, it is so peaceful here and there is abundant wildlife on our property. I wouldn't trade it for anything!!! I spend more time outdoors than indoors enjoying it.

Great discussion and wonderful points made by all!!!
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya

[jens g.r. benthien]

thanks a lot for your pic - it is indeed gorgeous. The deck has a very unique location!

It's so simple - you took your camera, pressed a button and voila - the picture is there. A snapshot of a short but beautiful moment.

Over here it was raining this morning. 14° C = 54°F. I enjoyed the walk to the newspaper box, feeling the slight rain on my shirt, smelling the fresh air of the surrounding forests. I don't have the desire to re-create this experience with a technical application - the perception would fail.

Now the ultimate question: is photography a re-creation of nature?

I'd say it's a method to capture a snapshot, a short glimpse of a certain stage of nature or a moment onto film or into bits and bytes. But it differs from the process of creating something that doesn't exist. Of course there is (or at least can be) a creative process involved, but photography IMHO remains an image of a small part of the universe. A photograph is like an emotion or instinct: it is NOW, it doesn't have a past. However, it might develop a future, bringing back memories after a certain time, that means photography will develop a past, a history in the future, whereas emotions - even if they are NOW - carry the past in the present moment.

Confusing? Well, I could continue, but I am too tired tonight to sort out my thoughts. I have to apologize, but maybe the other members will jump in right here to continue?

This thread is absolutely fantastic. Thanks to you all,

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--

[Ross Macintosh]

This is indeed a interesting thread. Thanks for getting it going and continuing to support it with your insightful remarks.

I sense from your comments the idea that the "masses" using these "realistic landscape generation programs" might be failing to seperate their creations from reality. Unfortunately, there are no computer graphics programs that have mass appeal. The analogy to painting is a good one. Painters, like computer graphic artists, are certainly in the minority - very few people actually create the realistic landscapes that prompted this thread. I rather doubt any of them confuse what they are doing with reality. Sure some of them must feel like they are "God" as they create but I doubt a single such person thinks they are God. As has been stated, it is likely the predominate motivator is recreation. Creative processes are at play when you use Vue d'esprit, terragen, mojoworld, bryce, etc. To me that abundance of creative activity needs to be celebrated rather than cause concern.

The "masses", unfortunately, tend to seek their recreation in passive activities that involve little creative thought. I'm thinking of television watching. It has been said that the popularity of mass-media television is the non-demanding escapism it provides. It provides a highly accessible escape to other "realities". Watching it our imaginations can be transported to other places, times, universes, etc. Whilst imagination is sparked, creative thought processes are put on hold: So much so that many people don't know the thrill of being creative. I believe creativity is intrensic to all people but that it must be exercised and honed. Without nurturing and exercising - creativity withers. In our culture the wonderful creativity of childhood thinking, more and more, gives way to relatively dull adult thought processes. That scares me.

It would excite me if there really was a mass-market computer program that encouraged creativity. Someone needs to create such a 'killer application' that can rekindle creativity in the "masses".

Regards, Ross

<a href=http://www.designstop.com/>DesignStop.Com</a>

[Crow Haven]

for this thread and the thoughtful reply---I agree with you!!! I think the thing I really do like most about using a computer from time to time is for the communication---I really enjoy being able to share thoughts with people from all over who I probably would never meet otherwise...things like this discussion would be missed---we could have it with others, of course, but it wouldn't be the same discussion...I always feel I learn from it and enjoy it.

Well, Ross, a killer ap for the masses.....hmmmm...there's a real challenge! The first thing that comes to mind is ask them to put on their shoes and get out of the house and enjoy the day/evening...."Nature, The Killer Ap For The Masses!" Sounds odd, but it's probably the best one around...and you won't have to wait for the CD to come out. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
---As The Crow Flies!---
Maya

[Mike Bailey]

Imagine if you were blind from birth, what would a color look like? Describe a color to a blind person, or a sound to someone who's been deaf from birth. Is it real? well, yes it feels rough, is it a tree? What does this music sound like, well if I can touch it, Oh its a vibration. Humm....., looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, taste like it, sure glad I didn't step in it.

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[jens g.r. benthien]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Maybe the concept of reducing dreams to a "digesting" of what you had to suppress during waking hours is a simplification?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think so because many people have so called daydreams, that means they dream with eyes wide open, talking to other people, working or sketching, driving a car etc. A good example are parrots - they are excellent daydreamers. They don't have to suppress anything, the just live like children - they never grow up as the humans define the 'adult stage'.

I think we can't turn off our dreams like a computer, only because the sun is rising above the horizon. The subconscious (spelling?) keeps going. That's why creative people have spontaneous ideas, because the 'reality' is constantly transfered to the subconscious - hell, now I pulled out my dictionary - processed there and 'transfered' back to the conscious, facilitating the evolvement of new thoughts and ideas. Don't get me wrong at this point. Of course this process can happen to 'normal' people as well, but not on a constant basis. 'Normal' people 'store' the information and process them while they sleep - dreaming a solution or the end of a story. The next morning they wake up and **if** they remember their dreams they have the 'aha effect'. There is a certain time lag inherited. Of course it's also possible that the effect needs several nights or even weeks.

But as I said - highly creative people have the ability to be awake and dream at the same time - I've experienced this effect many times while meeting movie directors, authors, painters, designers, dancers...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I won't talk too much about them, but my dreams are very logical and I can feel and think and make concious decisions in them. And when I am aware I'm dreaming (because I can float up and down at will) I can change everything I want, but _limited to what I can imagine_. So it's once again imagination and being able to focus/concentrate attention, or creativity and will-power that do the job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lucky you. I can reach this state only at certain times of the day, but usually I float down. Up is a shock. I'm not sure if you really can change everything your want, because even the subconscious does have a certain logic - if it wouldn't have this logic you would end up in a chaos or in a hospital with a shrink ;-}

The reason is simple: nature is built on - what humans call logical - processes. The universe is built on logic. A logic we - the humans - don't yet understand. We try to understand them with mathematical, physical, astronomical and chemical models to get a **picture**, but we still can think of a 4th dimension. Only a handful scientist can imagine a 4th, 5th or even 6th dimension. It's very abstract, but it does have a logic. However, even those great scientists don't understand the space/time curve at all for one reason: imagine a line, 3 lightyears long. OK. The line - as per definition - is straight. Now add the time dimension, and if there is a space/time curve, this line MUST contract into one single point. Let me explain: the line does have two ends, nodes or points. It's the shortest distance between these points. Assuming the space/time curve does exist, the line would bend and still be the shortest distance between the two nodes. If the time accelerates, the bend becomes more visible. Apply the highest accelleration and the two points will melt together into a singularity. This is logical. It's almost a mathematical 'axiom' (axiom means we agree that 1 plus 1 is 2, otherwise the whole mathematical system would collapse).

OK, now that we have reached a singularity, we can slow down the time curve. What will happen?
01. The singularity can't be split, so the time would have come to a standstill, or the universe will remain a singularity.
02. The singularity still consists of two points, that means they can move apart.
Solution 2 is the only logical solution. But hey, wait a second - a singularity doesn't have a direction, so what will happen if the time will slow down? Right, we can't predict the direction. It could be forward as well as backward or to any side. (Don't try to answer the question how we define a 'back', 'forward' or 'side' based on a singularity - it would drive you insane here).

Just this tiny excursion into logic of nature ;-}

For the same reason even your dreams MUST be logical, and they are logical, because we have grown up with nature's logic, without having the slightest chance to experience anything else.

Guys and girls, this is a tough cookie, and I hope you could follow me (shame on me if I couldn't explain it in your language, but even in German it's a mind cracker).

jens

jens g.r. benthien
designer
http://www.sacalobra.de

----------//--
If you don't know how to dream you'll never be a designer.
----------//--