Recycled patriotic tutorial....

[Old Dog]

While watching one of the medal ceremonies at the recent Olympic games I was inspired by the playing of our National Anthem, so I dug out Gary's flag tutorial and re-did it. Here's the result.

Sorry about the size, but I wanted you to be able to read the inscribed verse. I printed it out on a 12x18 inch sheet of watercolor paper and it really came out great.

Thanks Gary, for the great tut!

Jack

[This message was edited by Old Dog on March 02, 2002 at 09:59.]

[gwpriester]

I am flattered. You have done very well with the image and I love what you have done with the rope and connector. The text, although not readable at this size, is a very nice touch too.

As the image was created from a tutorial, I do not think you should add your copyright however. People might think that you created the image from scratch as opposed to improving upon an existing tutorial. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Still and all, very well done.

Gary

Gary Priester

Moderator Person

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XaraXone

[RAMWolff44]

Really liked the use of color. You can imagine the Olympic Flame in the background. Very nice.

GARY: this is a question for you. I read the copywrite blurb you added in. So if we create an image, even though it resembles the one from a tutorial we can't copywrite it?? Even though it was our effort and time and talent that got the job done??? Could you explain what's appropriate and acceptable in enableing us to 'claim' the image as our own. Must it be a completely different subject or should Jack simply make the flag wave differently??? Seems a bit vague to me.

Thank you

RAMWolff [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Old Dog]

I will be removing the copyright post haste. I was a little vague as is Ramwolf as to what is proper. Although I used the tutorial as a guide, I did make some changes. The flag is shaped and streched differently and the rope attachment is different from the tut. However, your are correct, it is basically your image. Also, adding the first verse of the National Anthem was my own idea. Just shortly before this tut was posted, I saw an almost identical design concept on another site (I believe it was on a PSP site) where the artist had superimposed the image of a New York firefighter in front of the flag. At what point does it become an original idea or the copy of someone elses. Like Ramwolf, I'm really interested where infringement begins and ends. If after using yours, or anyone elses tutorial to learn the techniques, at what point does a similar concept become copyrightable by the new artist? There seems to be a lot of gray area here. I've looked into this on the U.S. Copyright website and still don't really have a definitive answer. Had I used a different nations flag but still followed the tutorial as to color and layout, etc. Would that much of a change be ok to copyright?

It's not that I disagree with your point in the least. I'm just unclear. Could you, maybe give all of us a better understanding how this works as to tutorials.

Thanks again,

Jack

[gwpriester]

RW and Jack
My rule of thumb is this: If someone looks at Jacks image and then looks at my image and says, hmmm? someone is copying someone here, then there is a problem. Because Jack's copyrighting his image can cause confusion in the viewer's mind and could even hurt my credibility as an illustrator.

I state on the tutorials that they are for your personal use only. Hence if Jack, or anyone else recreates one of my tutorials and then places her or his copyright the image then this is a violation of my copyrights.

This is not to say that you should not always copyright your own images.

By law, any original and non-derivitave work of art you create is automatically copyrighted. But if you really want to protect your copyrights, you should register your image with the US Dept of Commerce Copyrights web site. This way if you need to sue an infringer on your copyrighted image and you win the suit, the violator has to pay your court costs. But only if you register your images before the infringement takes place.

My wife, Mary Carter wrote a splendid book on copyrights called Electronic Highway Robbery - An artist's guide to copyrights in the digital era that is sadly out of print now although you can still find copies here and there on the web.

Gary

Gary Priester

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XaraXone

[This message was edited by Gary W. Priester on March 02, 2002 at 10:43.]

[Old Dog]

I'm certainly not being argumentative here, but I did just now go to the U.S. Copyright website to try and find a clarification in this matter. Here's what I found:

Not copyrightable due to right of public domain: Ideas, Facts, Titles, Names, Short Phrases, and Blank Forms.

Subtext:

Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your discription, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work.

This still is not totally clear, so I have written the U.S. Copyright office with my specific question to see if they can really give a definitive answer.

It does seem to me, by the definition I found on the site, that a tutorial falls under the definition of "Method of doing something" and therefore would not be protected by copyright. That's not to say your finished work shown in the tutorial is not protected. I could not copy your finished piece and try and pass it off as my own, but by this definition at least, the work I create following your instructions is copyrightable by me as an original work of art.

That's my interpretation of what the copyright law says, but that doesn't mean I'm correct. I will wait until I hear back from the copyright office with their clarification. Until then, I have removed my copyright from my painting and it will remain that way until I'm told differently.

I will post their answer as soon as I get it. I'm sure it is something that will be useful to all of us in the future.

Most respectfully,

Jack

[gwpriester]

The courts have ruled time and time against against persons who have copied or reproduced a copyrighted image. There is a case where an Italian sculptor created a scupture from a photograph taken by a California photographer. The artist claimed the his was a totally new work and he only used the photograph as reference. The courts found that the sculpture was similar enough to prove that Art's copyrighted image had been infringed.

Several years back, the Grand Prize winner in the Corel International Design Contest had a stunning image of an Native American. The image he used for reference was a copyrighted photo from the Tony Stone Stock Photography collection. The infringer was ordered to pay Tony Stone Images all the money he received from Corel, around $100 thousand in prizes among other awards.

I strongly urge you to try to find a copy of Mary's book because it will really explain all this so much better than I can.

In short, if your image you create looks enough like someone else's copyrighted image, you may very well be guilty of a copyright infringement.

I just looked on Amazon.com and they have Mary's book for $13.00 or $6 used. It is money well spent. Click Here to go to the link. (The cover art is mine, by the way).

Gary

Gary Priester

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XaraXone

[RTK]

... of doing something...

Use Gary's "method" for creating the flag to create your own "designs"...

Gary's flag is not a "method" it is a "design".

Gary's "method" of creating the flag is not copyrighted - anybody can do things in whatever order they wish.

The books (tutorials) and so forth that "explain" a method are of course copyrightable.

Basics of copyright is easy - If a judge/jury can see the resemblance of two pieces... you are in trouble. AND there is no... "I was not aware of the other design"...

Risto

risto@ristoklint.com

Visit my web site!

[RAMWolff44]

that needed to be clarified.

I will most definetly (can never spell that one right) purchase your wifes book. As I'm sure she covers not only internet copyrights but most others. As I get closer and closer to wanting to put together a publishable portfolio of my works, I wanted to get clarification on what I can copywrite and call my own and pieces I need to give credit to whomever.

I would never point blank steal or "borrow" an image and copy it verbatum and call it my own creation. BUT to learn techniques and get ideas from others works is something I think all artists do to further ther abilities and add to their repetoire.

Thanks for the clarification and the link Gary.

RAMWolff [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[Old Dog]

Gary, I will definitely check out your wife's book. I think the amount, and varied response to a simple comment of yours shows how important this subject is to all of us.

I really want to dig deeper into this matter with the U.S. Copyright office. Not over my flag piece, you were right and I was wrong and I have removed my copyright from that painting. It also would not bother me if you removed it from this thread. I would be glad to re-post it with the copyright removed. I never meant to take any credit for your design. I made it clear in my post that it was credited to you and your tutorial. I simply placed my copyright on my finished piece believing that I had made enough changes to warrant it. You have my apologies, sir.

Jack