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gotcha - thanks I am grateful as ever for your expertise

going that route i can use the shape tool too which is what I would need as well

thanks acorn

up to a point... thing is, correct me if wrong but:

if you edit inside you only see the object[s] that has the mask[s] applied
if you open the opacity mask you only see the...

in my workflow i can see a real use for opacity msks as a means of quickly repostioning/reorienting a 'visibility window' that is punching through an object; pity that to actually edit the mask shape...

so opacity masks are rather like intersections with some editable features afterwards such as level of transparency, positioning and size..... useful; I learnt something :D

in your case definately not an empty vessel :D

where to stop indeed....

like michael I hardly ever use opacity masks so I was thrown at first not recognising the s/c; I like what you have done,...

true.. must have skipped that sorry... although it might be easier to follow if you had said that in the first instance of your post...

for anyone not sure that is 'apply opacity mask' - in classic keys that is alt+O