Can't see new colour profile window after upgrade to Pro+ 20.8.0.61047

I'm pleased that there is now supposed to be the option to view a Xara document onscreen using different colour profiles in this release but I've upgraded and can't find the option. The guidance online says to use the Window option on the Utilities menu but that option does not appear on my Utilities menu! Can anyone help?

it should be on the view tab of utilites / options, not on the utilites menu itself

Attachment 128795

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by handrawn

it should be on the view tab of utilites / options, not on the utilites menu itself

Attachment 128795

---

Thanks, that makes sense. I've found it now. The only thing now is that it won't accept any of my printer profiles as valid CMYK profiles so I'll have to investigate further!

Sorry my fault, should be Utilities > Options, corrected now.

If you have an ICC profile that isn't uploading, can you send it to me so we can take a look? Easiest is probably just to email it to me robert@xara.com

Many thanks

Cheers Rob-Xar

Hi,
I haven't updated XDP for a long time. Poor color management is one of the reasons. I was glad that Xara made progress in this direction. I tested this with PRO+ demo version.
I tried various profiles, but I couldn't see the difference. Does it even work? Some kind of trick?

Attachment 129021

Hi,
I am grateful for the numerous responses and comments. ;) I understood. Not worth wasting time and money with new version. While!

like you I don't see a difference on screen, but I may not be doing it right, it's a long time since I bothered with cmyk in xara - there is a difference though when exported as PDF/x

so I think that it may be it does not show on the screen as some of the info from xara imlplies, unless as I say, we are doing it wrong

as you are using pro+ you could go to the xara website log on and ask the question via chat referring them to your posts here; be interested to know what they say :)

Color management is a funny thing. Or, frustrating...depending on how "funny" is defined.

Some general observations from a person who doesn't have / will not even download a trial of Plus. I do not know which color engine Xara decided to use. For years I suggested LCMS.

In general, you shouldn't see a difference in same color defined vector objects. Even with an rgb image--depending on how Xara is handling rgb images--they too may demonstrate no to little change.

One idea of profiles is how to interpret, or characterize, color. Then the application and OS then needs to exchange/convert that profiled color to rgb screen values.

With color profiles, there is some "magic" that happens in the color engine having to do with characterization and curves handling (things like ink density). The first bit of magic should not necessarily change the on-screen representation, the second limits, for instance, how much ink to lay down and to convert the numbers to those that the print device can handle.

Oh. A specific print profile should not be used for on-screen viewing, only printing. A print device's profile is used for profile to profile conversion at the time of print.

thanks mike

in this link here:

https://www.talkgraphics.com/showthr...352#post633352

amongst other things rob says:

Quote:

---

Color profiles controls the way that CMYK colors appear on your monitor, giving you a close representation of how it will look when printed

---

that I think is where confusion arises - maybe it does this, just not in xara program ?

I suppose that statement and the linked article could lend itself to thinking that one should see a difference in cmyk vector objects.

Try this. Use an rgb image. Especially one with color way outside the cmyk gamut. Then switch profiles. That should show up differences.

However, I do not know how Xara is handling...assign or convert when importing an rgb image. If they are even dealing with the issue--but one should have a choice. Using assign, one should not see a difference, or much of a difference between cmyk models except where ink limits affect the characterization. Using convert, one should see an obvious difference (depending on the image) between the image editor and XDP+.

there is a difference in the PDF/x export when viewed on screen in adobe reader, between two of the cmyk profiles in xara selected at random, this difference is not there on the screen in xara - subtle but there in reader

the diifference is lost when they are reimported into xara

all this is with cmyk colour model and simulate print colours active

the xara representation is 'brighter than either of the PDFs in reader

Thank you guys for your reaction. I just wanted to make sure it doesn't work. However, as usual.

I don't expect much from print color simulation. But I'm quite happy with the Proof Colors in Photoshop, for example.
I thought that a miracle happened and Xara created something similar.

I was also surprised by Affinity Designer that I recently purchased for symbolic money.
Of course, the AD's toolkit lags behind XDP. But the export opportunities are impressive.

I have uninstalled the demo version of Pro+. :)

sure - if I have to dabble in cmyk I use affinity - unlike mike I don't have acrobat; I would rather leave it all to the print guys like him and just do as I am directed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by handrawn

unlike mike I don't have acrobat

---

PDF Studio Pro from Qoppa Software is a simple alternative with basic tools for print production(Preflight, Imposition and Output Preview). This is not comparable to Adobe software, but very useful for those who rarely need an Acrobat.

thanks ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by handrawn

there is a difference in the PDF/x export when viewed on screen in adobe reader, between two of the cmyk profiles in xara selected at random, this difference is not there on the screen in xara - subtle but there in reader

the diifference is lost when they are reimported into xara

all this is with cmyk colour model and simulate print colours active

the xara representation is 'brighter than either of the PDFs in reader

---

Reader uses the exact same color management as Acrobat, so no worries there.

As regards color differences XDP+ vs. Reader. Without downloading the trial (or taking Bhav up on the offer to test the color management), I don't know what/why there is a change.

There are a couple possibilities as to how, or if, the pdf is including the profile. If a at the document level, then Acrobat/Reader will display using that profile. But if XDP+ is tagging elements and not embedding the profile at the document level, then one has to make sure the Output Preview panel is open AND that the correct output profile is displayed in the Simulation Profile drop down--which is something Reader does not do.

As for the initial set of screen shots, I get the exact same color representation with cmyk vector objects no matter the document cmyk color profile in Illustrator...else it is so subtle I cannot see a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mwenz

As for the initial set of screen shots, I get the exact same color representation with cmyk vector objects no matter the document cmyk color profile in Illustrator...else it is so subtle I cannot see a difference.

---

In general, in Photoshop, the difference is quite visible.
I certainly don't use crazy profiles. Yes, the difference between Coated Fogra 27 and 39 is hardly noticeable. But those standard profiles I use are very close to the printed result. This gives me more confidence.

This is CMYK photoshop file with two vector objects.
Attachment 129031

I can predict from having prepared hundreds of my stereograms for publication what colors are going to be more or less true to the RGB screen colors and which are not.

I did a quick test with four bright vector colors. Then I switched to Simulate Print Colors and did a screen capture.

I did a screen capture of the colors exported to PDF Commercial Printing, and finally as a CMYK TIFF.

Of the group the two closest are the PDF and Xara's CMYK TIFF.

Without knowing how Xara implemented the CM they used, I have near exhausted my input.

In general, you should not be using Relative Colormetric for your proof setup in PS if this job will be professionally printed. It's a good choice for home/prosumer print devices (esp. inkjets) but not if producing a pdf being (especially) offset printed or on calibrated professional print devices. As well, simulating paper color and Relative's therefore default of using simulated black also isn't a good thing in general. Depending on the type of job, even BPC may give false impression of what may actually print.

I would suggest using Perceptual in your PS proofing, with BPC unchecked.

Xara does need to have those settings exposed if they aren't, though.

I absolutely agree with Mike. I can't rely 100% on the screen, but good CMYK simulation and experience allows us to create graphics for printing without losing quality. Almost ;)
Thanks Garry for the screenshots. We can see that the difference between Xara's print simulation and output images is huge. What am I actually talking about. I have nothing to add. This does not work.Attachment 129035

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by digitalphaser

I absolutely agree with Mike. I can't rely 100% on the screen, but good CMYK simulation and experience allows us to create graphics for printing without losing quality. Almost ;)
Thanks Garry for the screenshots. We can see that the difference between Xara's print simulation and output images is huge. What am I actually talking about. I have nothing to add. This does not work.

---

Hi. Please can you check try disabling simulate print colors (window menu > show printer colors > screen colors ) and then checking if you see a difference on screen with CMYK colors when changing the profile? I'Attachment 129034 I've attached a file containing screen shots of several profiles with and without 'simulate print colors' enabled. A visual difference is seen on changing profiles when 'screen colors' is enabled.

Many thanks

Attachment 129034

ok check

I, for one, was doing it wrong - should not have had simulate print colours active, thanks

also you can see how in colour editor, athough the sliders are in the same place, the 'hue' of the magenta slider has definately shifted

Attachment 129037

Sorry, I already uninstall PRO+ and I can not check it now. But I believe you and realized what I did not correctly. Although I find your way not logical.

If Xara does not have full color management and works only in RGB space, the use of the „Simulate Print Color“ button is quite reasonable.
XDP cannot correctly interpret the CMYK files, especially from another software. Why then this quasi "automatic" preview?

I had missed reading that the simulate print color action was being used.

That choice shouldn't be in the application any longer. It has no use now.

and the help brought up to date and the manual too.. I shall not hold my breath ;(