I feel I need to comment on a statment made by “sledger” about the nature of Xara Web Designer (XWD). Sledger (on behalf of the Xara Team) comes with various statements which I have commented here.
Printable View
The Talkgraphics moderators aren't representatives of Xara. We are Xara users like you. We try to serve the community of users as best we can and we do so without any remuneration from Xara. Sledger, like any moderator, does not write "on behalf of the Xara Team".Quote:
Originally Posted by netsi
Regards, Ross (Moderator)
Hi Sten,
I'm afraid you have made a big mistake..
To coincide with the release of Xara Web Designer, Xara asked that I create the new Web Designer forum at TalkGraphics.
All of the content of the opening sticky thread was provided by Xara which, as you can see, is signed: -The Xara Team, Not 'On Behalf of the Xara Team'
In other words, the 'About Xara Web Designer' opening thread was not written by myself at all.
I must therefore ask that you remove your comments about 'it' being my statement and, as Google has already indexed your site, correct your error quickly.
In future, it would be best to contact either myself, another moderator or Xara themselves before using and commenting on material published at TalkGraphics.com for your own website purposes. It is polite and the right thing to do.
Finally, why did you not bring your 'comments' to TG for discussion instead of directing people to your own website?
It's what TalkGraphics.com, your membership and the Web Designer forum is for, surely?
Many thanks
Steve (sledger)
I bet he's afraid of being moderated here. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by sledger
Sten, I would like to comment your last, and only constructive paragraph in your article, called "Finally: Lets make it even better!".
Your idea to extensively use WD is not new, as I have heard it from quite a few other TG members. So, if you want to organize a volunteer developers team, the best place to do it is TG. :)
I suggest you create a thread where you put out your ideas, share them with community, and who knows, perhaps it will result in something useful.
Also as a part of Xara team I feel not very pleased hearing this:
Are you trying to imply that xara-team is uninspired with WD? Well, sure you have a right for your opinion, but after all the tweaks and improvements we made shortly after the first release of the product, this works in reverse - reading such things I'm a one step from regretting that I actually did all this. :mad:Quote:
But I hope that this article have been inspirational to the xara-team and others who have read it!.
:) I would never expect to be moderated while giving my points of view! The reason is that I like to have a BLOG where I collect my own articles.Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
No, guess my poor english made it come out wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
In general getting 2nd opponions on a thing is inspiring, so I was hoping that my comment would somehow inspire you to see new sides of XWD
Okay, it happend - I was moderated. I feel sad and let down. What is this if not an open forum?:(
I typed the three words netsi sledger XWD into google and your ex-link was the very first item in the list ;) No Problem
The web is an open place whatever this forum may or may not be...
Ok Sten, I understand.
So, if you do really want to exapand WD functionality some way, you may cont on my support.
But I would ask you to keep the project (if it will take a look of an open project) on Talkgraphics, because I'm active here and it would be much easier to keep in touch this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by handrawn
Thank you for your supporting words! :-) I agree the web is an open place - and so should Talkgraphics.com be. I have been a member since 2000 and support it, so suddently being moderated is not a nice experience....:o
I will try to keep it within talkgraphics, but sometimes I spend perhaps 2 hours writing an article, and go from and to the computer while getting my ideas about how to write it. Sometimes it is more of an article and in such cases I think that a BLOG like my own seems like a better place to post it.Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
In such cases I do like I did with this moderated thread: Post on my BLOG and enter a link (which normally is not removed :D)
Yes, if you post links to the articles here I may follow them. :)
I am NOT a programmer of any kind. I am BARELY a designer.
For >>"ME"<< - XWD provides me with the greatest opportunity to show what I've decided to create. What I saw in my mind's eye. And put it on the web for all to see.
XWD fits what I need to do perfectly. I need no more than that. This is it.
If it turned out in the future that it no longer suited my needs. I would, at that point, look for a tool that did. There are more than enough other programs that provide the half-WYSIWYG design people keep talking about. Frontpage, Dreamweaver and GoLive are just a few I've seen.
They seem to give you the ability to put things where you want them AND edit the code and such.
I've used this example before.
I wanted a screwdriver. I bought one that works for me. You wanted a screwgun, you bought the same screwdriver I did. But now you keep going to the manufacturer of the screwdriver and asking them to turn it into the screwgun you want.
This would take away from what I wanted and needed. It would also drive up the price of the product I wanted because it would be loaded with features I don't need.
Maybe in the future there will be some kind of XWD Pro because they've figured out a way to import HTML and have it appear on screen or give the ability to tweak the code and have it show up in XWD. I don't know.
I do know that XWD fits my needs and I'm very happy with the way it works as well as the price they've asked for what they've provided.
Thank You again Xara for making something so cool.
Sten,
I agree that Xara has a unique opportunity with XWD, if they extend it beyond it's current rendition, and have been actively promoting that notion on this forum. I don't think that they will have to do it in a way the leaves the "creative-only" people behind. Broadening XWD's appeal to the "logical" side, is a good thing and doesn't have to be done at the expense of the "creative" side.
Perhaps you should copy and paste your blog post here so others will be more likely to read it and respond. It could generate more positive discussion, IMO...
Regards,
Steven...
John, you can be asured that 99% of the users here are more than happy with your effort developing solutions and tweaks for every task or problem coming up.Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
PLEASE keep up your great work - your posts (and of course those of a few others here) have already helped me a lot! Thank you.
Sten,
Would you please remove my name from your BLOG article as requested.
Striking out is not enough.
Most people would offer an apology for such a mistake, everyone makes them from time to time, but it appears that you don't think that you have even made one? :confused:
Let down? Why.. What promises have been made to you?Quote:
I was moderated. I feel sad and let down. What is this if not an open forum?
Open Forum: What does this mean to you? That you can say anything you like, even if it's completely erroneous?
@John (Covoxer)
Please take any disparaging remarks (made by anyone at TG) regarding your work, your unfailing help or any similar comments about the Xara team as a whole, with a large grain of salt.
You and your efforts are greatly appreciated and admired here. That's fact. ;)
Edit: Sten I appreciate your subsequent recent changes to your blog article, however I still request that you remove my name - thanks
John, like I said elsewhere, XWD is a great program but your help and your tweaks are bringing it alive! That's what the vast majority think I'm absolutely certain. All your hard work and patience is appreciated :)
Ain't that the truth! Appreciated and admired. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by sledger
Now something about Xara Web Designer: I find it fun to work with and when I see the many postive reactions from others here at the forum, so do most here.
The program is so good, that it's actually quite easy to imagine it even better. Hence the many suggestions and feature requests, quite a few of which have already been implemented through Covoxer's tweaks (also called ‘drag-and-drop coding’ :)).
I find it exciting to see how the developers try to put the technical part of web designing 'under the hood'. I am aware that some people are upset about this 'covering up' because -- as I understand it -- they see beauty and necessity in up-front, out-in-the-open coding and they present all sorts of arguments to make their point.
However interesting and valid these points may be, it seems that Xara’s WD development strategy aims to translate such issues into users-not-having-to-code solutions. That seems to be the challenge that Xara has set for itself and in doing so it evokes rather strong emotions: positive ones in those that finally see web designing becoming (more) accessible to them and negative ones in those who wish to continue to use coding as a/the main designing tool.
I have removed your name SledgerQuote:
Originally Posted by sledger
Thank you Sten :)
Dear Boy - and other who think that I hate XWD - please understand that I was and am happy to see XWD on the market!Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy
I have tried to say it in my blog, but obviously not had too much success with it: I only want future XWD to be more aware toward the stuff under the hood. As I also said before: A perfect website comes out of a perfect
cooperation of "both sides": The design and the logic on a website.
Sten, I know there are many web designers that want to see "under the hood". I think there are a multitude of programs out there that provide that functionality. What Xara is providing is an afforadable solution to those of us who want good web sites, easy design, but cannot afford programs like Dreamweaver. I don't do complicated websites. My sites are for games I play (LOTRO, Warhammer, etc.) and a family one. I learned to make pages in a text editor, and never could find an affordable program for design that was easy to use. I stuck with text, and kept my sites simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by netsi
With WD, I am going to be able to make my sites much more dynamic and complicated. In fact, the ability to let WD generate the code is going to make my sites MORE interactive, not less.
So, I happen to disagree with your assesment. If I want to see the code, its easy enought to generate the site and open the files in a text editor.
Where do I say that I think you hate XWD?Quote:
Originally Posted by netsi
I don't exactly understand what you mean when you say that you want "future XWD to be me more aware toward the stuff under the hood". But if I take your words literally, I would say that putting stuff under the hood successfully (meaning that the program works well) requires an enormous amount of awareness (on the part of the designers).Quote:
Originally Posted by netsi
Or are you perhaps saying that XWD is becoming a bit like a modern car with EPS and all the other (under-the-hood) hi-tech electronic systems that give the driver more control over his car but, at the same time, make him less responsible for how he drives?
Ok, reading once again Stan's comments I guess I finally grasped where the confusion coming from. :rolleyes:
Stan, the thesis' that you quote form the Xara marketing materials are not exclusive as you interpret them. Let me explain on examples.
“Creating websites should be like creating PDF files - you should not need to know anything about what happens ‘under the hood‘”This means that there must be a way to create web sites the way we create PDF. This doesn't mean that this has to be the only way as you imply.
“it provides no HTML code view, and no abilities to program Javascript”This was said in context that it allows you to create sites without even needing code view and JS. You interpret it as code or JS are prohibited in WD, which is weird as you know well about all the snippets, placeholder capabilities and the willingness of Xara to make it flexible. Remember how header placeholders were added after WD release as a response to the users request? How does it fit your interpretation of this phrase?
One more thing, you disagree that: "“It’s evident that the vast majority of websites are of a graphical nature”". You can disagree of course, but the truth is that most pages on the web (by number, not visitors traffic) are amateurs pages. As you later clarify - "serious websites...". But think about it - are the "serious websites" majority of the web? I don't think you believe it. :D
So, Stan, you simply got a bit incorrectly the meaning of the article that you quote. It doesn't actually oppose most things you say.
PS I'm answering here instead of your blog due to several personal reasons.
Hmm... I think that I was carried away by my emotions and wrote what I was feeling at the moment of writing. This comment of mine have awoken some strong feelings and at a time I felt that many people were indicating that I hated XWD... Sorry, Boy...:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Boy
If XWD were to be categorized as a "modern car with EPS and other hi-tech electronic systems" then that would not be totally wrong. It lets you focus on driving it while enjoying the ride (the user interface gives you comfatable airconditioned ride). And it will get you safely to your goal: A website of your wish. It will use EPS and ABS if nessesary to prevent you from steering of the webstandard road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy
I know that some very experienced drivers prefer to be 100% in controle, having no extra hi-tech help systems, things like ABS is in their opinion not a good thing, cause they can handle it manually based on their experience, but for the most of the drivers it is a good think I guess.
Back to XWD. I want this "car" to offer both the smooth ride, the high-tech help systems and the options to add extra functionality during the ride and add things which will let you drive to higher goals!
These extre features should be transparent in their way to integrate, meaning that you will not see them as extras once you have them "installed". Like the plug-in option in the sister product of XWD called Xara Extreme Pro - it will let you apply (adobe photoshop) many standard plug-in effects to vector/bitmap elements without leaving the product!
These extra features will add transparent integration with evolving web standard features like the many javascript effects based on jQuery (see examples: Sliders, Accordion) or any other dynamic content webparts.
So I hope you understand that I only wanted to comment on the current state of this great product, while addressing things which I see might be a side that could be extended to make this product even better!:)
Perfect! I commented in the hope to make this product even better, and as you correctly mentioned I probertly got some of the statements wrong:(Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
Well, I have previously used Xara Extreme Pro for producing serious websites and am hoping to start using XWD to do things like muck-up of websites too - also for serious web-sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
Thanks, maybe I should try to pratice my poor english so I do not repeat this...Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
Just got an idea: Why not make a new forum called something like:
Xara Web Designer - "under the hood"
A forum where the technical (HTML/CSS/Javascript and other web-technical elements) can be discussed. For instance:
Such issues which are focused on the "other" part of any website: The "under the hood" part, and not the design/layout part.
- How do we make the output from XWD more jQuery (and other javascript API) friendly?
- Avoiding inline style and using CSS classes.. what would be perfect?
- Adding a standard which will allow for easy integration with web based content in websites generated by XWD. In a manner simular to the plug-in of Xara Extreme Pro.
What do you think?:)
Hi Sten,
I think John (covoxer) is on the way to develop such things.
See post #44 in this thread and John's answer:
Regards,Quote:
Originally Posted by covoxer
Remi
To make a separate forum it has to be populated enough. For the beginning you can create a thread and it will show if it's worth a separate forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by netsi
I have used Xara products for a few years now, with graphics from Webstyle 4.
After experimenting with Xara Web Designer, I was vey impressed until I viewed the source code and the second line down <!-- saved from url=(0020)http://www.xara.com/ --> appeared.
I tried Place Holder to add extra code and it seems limited.
Looking at other owners websites created with XWD all have the same line of code.
Cannot see the reason for this line of code as it is covered by <meta name="Generator" content="Xara HTML filter v.2.1.0.665"/>
Is there anyway of removing that line "saved from" code.
Xara Web Designer is a great programme and with some idividual HTML control and HTML improvements it would be much better.
Covoxer's response:
This line is a "Mark Of The Web". It tells Internet Explorer that this page belongs to the Internet security zone so it doesnt' ask you to run scripts when you open it locally.
The domain used in this line makes no difference so we use one that we can be responsible for.
Perhaps.... XWD should have been released as XWD 1.0 instead of 5.0! It is unfair to expect a fledging application to come out of the blocks as a world beater. I think that it will develop into something quite special but not in its first incarnation by version 5.0! Web design is no longer a black art, if a multinational company wants a website, they'll expect to pay thousands of $'s and their designer not liable to rely on XWD. For the majority of sites, most of what's required can be achieved in XWD... that is its target market. A couple of weeks ago, a colleague proudly showed off his new Dreamy website... there was nothing that could not have been achieved in XWD. It's almost snob value... you do not need to go shopping in a Rolls Royce when a Mini will do... particularly in the mini is a Mini Cooper! (UK users will get that one!)
So, do it by yourself and show us your results in the "Show us your sites!" thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by w00dy
I would like to see really interesting or innovative layouts in this thread.
Remi