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Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
even though none of us have souls but that's another topic. :p
I have looked into that eye and i think i can see your soul in there buddy!:)
P.S.:
Its all too easy to confuse ones opinion with "Fact".
And its also a big leap to be drawing such conclusions purely on the basis of an apparent vacuum of scientifically variable confirmation.
Especially when by all accounts to current scientific speculative reasoning consciousness is a totally bankrupt concept.
i.e. they have not the slightest concept of what it is (from their perspective)....let alone what energies or super-physical dimensions are underpinning it.
(But one thing is for certain nobody can ignore it.)
In fact the only "intelligent" thing science has to say on the matter is a monumental assumption.....
i.e that consciousness is the product of interactions of matter....(Which is absurd by the way...a "mechanical" sentience? Yeah, lets try to explain something we know virtually nothing about purely in terms of what little we do?)
But the same evidence they would quote to support such a guess does not dispel the complete opposite supposition:
That matter (wholesale) is the product of interactions of consciousness (super physical dimensions)...
But i do admit they have to start somewhere but a total lack of so much as a clue where to start to even define what it is they are trying to understand does not help them.
P.S...blah blah blah....I say you do have a "soul".
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Re: Does Ross Macintosh have a soul?
Ah, but no, but, it could be said Ross hasn't got a soul, he is a soul. We all are. As Wordsworth wrote, "Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar ..." And no, I'm not positing a deity, simply the existence of life before and after our three-score-years-and-ten in corporeal form. The man-made 'religions of revelation' have confused the issue and given too much prominence to the body instead of recognising it, like the ancients did, as being a temporary vehicle or a prison cell (according to, for instance, the Cathars) or a mere quantum glitch.
Well, that's my two-penny-worth :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Those 2 pennies could be worth $1.35!
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
:D Higher exchange rate for self-aware souls :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
post #1 itself contains quite a lot of opinion stated as fact it seems to me..
some questions/propositions simply have no answer IMO
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
I don't care what he has or doesn't have. I like Ross!:D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
If Ross has the sole then i'll have the veggie lasagne please. And we'll have a couple of beers with that...
...thanks. ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
One of the wonderful things about human existence (when you live with freedom) is that we are free to believe whatever we want. You can have a view of your existence shaped by religious teachings, tribal tradition, philosophical inquiry, or perhaps watching too many situation comedies on TV.
While I'm not 'religious' I do try to live an honorable, ethical, life somewhat in tune with the world around me. I don't find any personal need for 'spiritual guidance' in my life yet I accept that others do in their own. Look deep into my eye -- you will see my retina. ;)
Regards, Ross
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
First we have to come to a consensus what a soul exactly is, and then
I can look into the assertion if I have one.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Consciousness - the 'breath of life'. Some philosophies (e.g. some religions) have confused the issue by insisting this has to do with a deity. In my opinion it's just a part of Nature. It's probably a glitch. ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Ross has a right to his belief as do we all.
For me, in my life I've had holes in the soles of my shoes and I've bought shoes in Seoul. It's a wonderful life so why question someone else's thoughts?
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Does Ross have a soul? Of course he does! We all do. Your soul is the real you that lives inside of your body. It is the essence of life itself, without which, you'd just be a pile of bones, organs and skin.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Think about it this way:
- the body is a hardware;
- the soul is a software runing on this hardware.
It's a pity there's no external storage for software backups though. :(
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Very good analogy John.
When the existing hardware wares out the software migrates to a different type of hardware in another reality. Conservation of energy is the scientific explanation.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
While I'm not 'religious' I do try to live an honorable, ethical, life somewhat in tune with the world around me. I don't find any personal need for 'spiritual guidance' in my life yet I accept that others do in their own. Look deep into my eye -- you will see my retina. ;)
You handled that well...
(I don't really believe in a "deity" my-self either)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
covoxer
Think about it this way:
- the body is a hardware;
- the soul is a software runing on this hardware.
It's a pity there's no external storage for software backups though. :(
I like your analogy but I prefer to think of it differently....
I would say the software would refer to the mind.....
Having access to a fact does not make a machine or person sentient for I think you will find your awareness present regardless of what the object of its attention is.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
ZEBtoonz
Does [name] have a soul? Of course he does! We all do. Your soul is the real you that lives inside of your body. It is the essence of life itself, without which, you'd just be a pile of bones, organs and skin.
All we are is a pile of bones, organs and skin, and certain other scientifically proven matter and processes. Anything else is just an opinion, however fervent one's belief in that opinion. And a fervent belief in something isn't enough to make it fact.
And that is probably as much as should be said about this particular subject :)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
kinetica
All we are is a pile of bones, organs and skin, and certain other scientifically proven matter and processes.
even that is not a fact - everything could simply be an illusion of your mind [whatever that might actually be] - hello this is your imagination speaking :D:D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Steve, if you are my imagination I'm in bigger trouble than I imagined. Errr, huh ? :confused:
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Hmmm, if the soul is the software, I think I am long overdue for some patches. ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Like you have bugs or what? :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
The real question should be do people have souls? It's not like I don't have one while everyone else does! I'm not Satan's little helper. :D
While some are convinced they do have a soul I think its only because they have been conditioned to believe that through a lifetime of religious teaching and cultural bias. In the past it used to be believed that the mental activity we now ascribe to our brains, were functions performed by our hearts. (They didn't know or worry what brains were for -- perhaps some kind of blood filter thingie). In those times virtually everyone thought the heart organ did their thinking. Most would have believed the thinking heart 'reality' just as passionately as you good folks who believe in souls. They would have learned the idea the same way you learned to believe in souls.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
First 'no such thing as talent' now 'no such thing as soul' :p
its all words - never find reality just poring over words :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
The real question should be do people have souls?
I think the question is actually what we call a "Soul"?
Obviously any individuum possesses personality, which is not material nevertheless it's existence is scientifically proven.
Now take a look at all possible definitions of the soul, what they have in common? Right, first of all it's the fact that any soul is unique for every person and it is not material. Call it what you want, but it exists.
The mystical aspects of the soul are not about it's existence, it's about it's immortality, or travels between bodies e.t.c. We obviously can only believe or not believe in these, but we can't prove them neither right nor wrong as for now.
It's a common mistake to substitute existence with materiality. Keep in mind, the software, the art, the knowledge, all your designs and drawings, all inventions and finally all the intellectual property is not material, but I guess no one doubt it exists. It even costs money... which, by the way, are not material too. :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
I don't equate "soul" with "personality". The soul I refered to was more in the biblical sense. If I'm not mistaken the Bible only ascribes souls to people, (Sorry folks you aren't going to be reunited in Heaven or Hell with all your pets or favorite bovines). Anyone who's ever had a pet (or a favorite bovine) knows that animals can also have individual personalities.
I agree that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a biblical type soul. I expect that when any of die we'll just be dead but hopefully remembered fondly by those lives we touched and by our decendants & ancestors. I don't expect any of us become ghosts or be playing cards together in gilded palaces in Heaven while we wait for our wings or for our 20 virgins. What I find odd is the unbounded faith many have that they indeed have "souls" and their reluctance to see that perhaps it is just wishful thinking.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
What I find odd is the unbounded faith many have that they indeed have "souls" and their reluctance to see that perhaps it is just wishful thinking.
a human trait that, not limited to theological matters ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
It is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a biblical type soul.
It is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of an invisible tree troll at the bottom of my garden.
The two above statements are virtually identical. However, vehemently disputing the former gets you labelled as an agent provocateur and banned from forums, whilst vehemently insisting on the latter gets you labelled as a nutcase :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
I don't equate "soul" with "personality". The soul I refered to was more in the biblical sense.
Why not? Can you find any differences between biblical soul and personality, or software as I suggest?
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If I'm not mistaken the Bible only ascribes souls to people
This is true. Let's say, that the biblical "Soul" is a name of the particular kind of sofware that runs only on human hardware and is generally compatible. Animals have software too, but it is not compatible with human.
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I agree that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of a biblical type soul.
And here you are wrong. It's existence, as long as we follow definition of waht it is and not what can happen with it, is long since proven. Even more, the soul concept in all religions and philosophies came from real life practical experience. Note that we are talking about existance, not myths regarding how it is created, or the purpose of it or it's out of the hardware capabilities.
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I expect that when any of die we'll just be dead but hopefully remembered fondly by those lives we touched and by our decendants & ancestors.
So you don't expect your soul can exist when your body stop functioning. Just like software. ;) But still this does not mean that your soul does not exist while your body is alive. Does it?
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What I find odd is the unbounded faith many have that they indeed have "souls" and their reluctance to see that perhaps it is just wishful thinking.
No, they don't believe that they have souls, they believe in their immortality. These are quite different things. ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
In the past it used to be believed that the mental activity we now ascribe to our brains, were functions performed by our hearts.
People who have organ transplants (particularly but not only the heart) not uncommonly receive some character traits or dispositions etc of the host....
You may scoff but tell that to the recipients who report such things quite regularly and sometimes with no idea where these things have come from only to be later confirmed....
And if you do reject these direct assertions by quite a large group of individuals out of hand (because it flies in the face of convention) then where may i ask is the science in that?
Instead of trying to disprove things that don't agree with one's pet theories...more enlightened scientists actually look for possible machinisms that might support observations and postulate theories ETC (wait isn't that the scientific method? pity not all scientists perscribe to it.)
And consequently it has also been shown that some kind of "neural tissue" does exist in the heart. (shock horror......you mean looking is better than assuming....)
The current state of science now will be voodoo in 100 years and much of what is now taken as fact will be just a curiosity of more ignorant times.
Such is life.
And again I'm not saying this proves anything but I think it is foolish for people to assume that even well established and quite workable ideas are the be all and end all...
And because something works generally and is useful does not mean it is the whole story or even that ones assumptions are 100% correct even if the underlying theory (for all intentions purposes) appears 100% correct.
P.S... Don't take this as being directed at you so much (you can believe what you like of course)... i'm referring more generally to science as a whole and to human nature.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
Whatever you're smoking, John, pass it in. That's powerful stuff and I could use some.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
I'm assuming you mean Morph and not John - John is making a good case - Morph on the other hand is being Morph ..
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
handrawn
I'm assuming you mean Morph and not John - John is making a good case - Morph on the other hand is being Morph ..
I know who I am....Do you know who you are? :)
P.S. are you familiar with the term "consensus reality"? (You probably are but even so) You should endeavor to fully explore it...as i think some deep contemplation of this concept may yield insights for you. ;)
P.P.S. I was wondering that too LOL tell us Kinetica who is "smokin' weed" Me or John?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ross Macintosh
What I find odd is the unbounded faith many have that they indeed have "souls" and their reluctance to see that perhaps it is just wishful thinking.
Sorry to be concentrating on you Ross... your words just seem to be the best lead ins to my own...
And your right many people just take the word of others or a book as gospel but there are those who do not take this route.
So I think it is a huge error to presume that the existence of the soul can not be proven.
I think (more accurately) that it may well be very difficult if not impossible to prove it to someone else however
(That is if they are unwilling or unable to devote themselves to the task - through perhaps the rigorous development which often goes with various types of consciously sanctioned paths of spiritual awakening said to achieve such realizations...), it may well only be possible for them to prove it to themselves.
In the same way as it is impossible to prove to another that you are actually sentient yourself (as they know they are but equally can not prove to you) and not simply displaying every possible physical sign of being sentient but somehow actually not being so.
One thing is for sure however when you are sentient you know it... and it is fundamentally beyond words, mental pictures, or even mental concepts....
And obviously it is not hard to relate this to other people as i presume every body is and so it is understood in this respect.
Spiritual awareness is said to be an expansion of this same consciousness...but i guess taking it to places undreamed of to the average person.
And how can that which is fundamentally beyond even mental conception be explained in symbols and metaphors...it can only be hinted at and may well sound wild.
But one thing is for certain...rarely do people question the validity of such things once experienced...
You may think this to be blind faith?
But do you doubt your own awareness?
Do you doubt that you can actually see?
Do you think there is a chance that you may be mistaken and that your actually not really aware?
I didn't think so.
As even thought you do not know what consciousness is (In that you can only use a word or label to express it) and can not compare it to anything (but reality itself) outside of itself (i.e any object), it is none the less beyond question and self evident...
In fact I would say it is the only "real" thing you will ever experience.......being.
And i think Ross that that is probably the most palatable definition for soul you will find...bare awareness... your core.... Sentience itself...
Surely you possess this!
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
It's a pity there's no external storage for software backups though. :(
I have that - it's called a "wife".
Believe me - she reminds me of anything I've attempted to have wiped from memory.
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
No, I meant John. John is being John. Bless him, he brings out the rampant sceptic in me even more than most people! :)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
fair enough :D
Morph: - if I want to know what a tree is, I go look at a tree - and I examine it without letting words get in the way ;)
Dogbertbh: - mine even reminds me not to forget what I haven't yet been told, 'cause it works both ways :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
kinetica
Whatever you're smoking, John, pass it in. That's powerful stuff and I could use some.
Hey, I don't smoke. So maybe the problem is in what you smoke out there. ;) :D
After all, I'm just your imagination........
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
You just imagine that you don't smoke. All of us outside of your blue, smoky bubble will attest to the opposite. But imagining that you don't smoke may be the least of your problems :p
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
kinetica
You just imagine that you don't smoke. All of us outside of your blue, smoky bubble will attest to the opposite. But imagining that you don't smoke may be the least of your problems :p
:eek:
Stop smoking that s..t! It will kill you! :D
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
covoxer
Why not? Can you find any differences between biblical soul and personality, or software as I suggest?
Well, souls seem to be unchangeable, but personalities seem to be
changeable. Many people can experience a personality change due
to an accident. So the hardware does change how the software
may functon if the brain gets damaged. So in your analogy personality
can`t be the same a soul, for personality can be alltered by the hardware.
Just my patch lacking comments ;)
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
that might be the operating system reinstalling appropriate drivers to accommodate hardware changes [ I just hope I'm not going to regret getting dragged into this:D] so, then soul is operating system, personality is application software..... ....
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Re: Does "Ross Macintosh" have a soul?
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Originally Posted by
ankhor
Well, souls seem to be unchangeable, but personalities seem to be
changeable.
Biblical souls are not unchangeable by means of it's behavioral characteristics. For example, the soul of the new born and the same adult person is the same soul but it's characteristics are much different. The same stands true for the psychical disorder caused by physical damage. The soul changes by learning and forgetting, by acquiring reflexes and developing opinions, finally it changes by moods and feelings all the time.