Dark Brown CMYK

I encountered a strange problem. Extreme difference dark brown colors in Xara (Simulate Print Colours) and in the exported PDF/X file (Fogra 39). This problem is not visible in the light tints of brown. Has anyone any ideas. Why and what to do?
Usually, by offset printing colors are a bit saturated than in the original file. But there is an amazing difference.
Some of the CMYK values I took from the DuMont Color Atlas. But the result is the same. :-O
In PDF file are the colors that I would like to have.

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Attachment 107255

Xara applications are not color managed. Use the values of what you want and more or less disregard what you see in Xara applications.

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Originally Posted by mwenz

Xara applications are not color managed. Use the values of what you want and more or less disregard what you see in Xara applications.

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What did you mean?
Can I not trust Xara Color Manager?
So far everything has worked really great. I often work with printing companies and always get results that I wanted. Of course there are nuances that I've learned. But with this brown color is strange!
There is a way out. I can convert this vector to bitmap. Then results are consistent. But these are rather crutches as a good solution.
That's a pity!

It's always been like this since the intro of the PDF filter. That's why Mike, who answered your question above, uses Pantone books to check colours, that's why when I was working I used a restricted palette of colours that I knew. Both of us relied heavily on Adobe Acro Pro so that we can check to see what the output was and do something about it. Also both of us use a higher quality of monitor and we regularly check its performance. I don't know what Mike uses but I used ColorVision Spyder2 which I don't know if its made now. Yes it's all the darker colours that cause the real problems, the maroons and dark greens can look really muddy as well as you found out the darker browns.

You have to get yourself a reference and if you don't want to spend £200 on a pantone book then make yourself up an A3 sheet with what you think is a reasonable selection of colours that you use with colour value labels along side with both RGB & CMYK stated. Even if you had Illustrator on your H/drive you still would have some problems with the difficult colour maybe not as bad as in Xara but still there. If you are going to do printed work more than once a month I would also recommend a 2nd hand copy of Acro Pro.

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Originally Posted by Albacore

...Yes it's all the darker colours that cause the real problems, the maroons and dark greens can look really muddy as well as you found out the darker browns...

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Aha, that is, the problem is present. :) It has relieved me.

As for the monitor calibration. I have only bad experience with Spyder4Pro. It is good to know that your computer is calibrated. But in practice, the result is rather disappointed as well. Maybe for RGB photographer is good, but not for prepress PDF Workflow. So, a matter of taste. Of course Acro Pro is always there.

Yes, Illustrator is not much better. CorelDraw is, at least earlier versions, very bad.

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Originally Posted by Albacore

...You have to get yourself a reference and if you don't want to spend £200 on a pantone book...

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For CMYK I use DuMont Color Atlas with CMYK values.

In any case, thanks for the tip.

I use Pantone...but mainly for Pantone colors. I do use cmyk color swatch books.

Both illustrator and CorelDraw are spot on when everything is set up properly. Color management in CD really didn't get proper until X4, and became as good as Illy in X5. X6 and X7 are great.

It's just not darker colors that will mutate. Brights--high saturation of colors that are outside the CMYK gamut like reds, greens, blues, purples, etc.--will also muddy upon conversion.

Xara applications' Show Print Colors is only useful in the sense that it *can* show that there will be a shift in color. There is no CMYK document color space, there is no CMYK (or RGB for that matter) profile that can be used to alter on-screen color into a working space. That's what I mean by "Xara applications are not color managed."

Depending on the output profile, color values, including CMYK, is properly represented in a PDF.

I also have recommended people have a swatch document printed. But it's only really useful when taking work to a quick printer. That is, a printer who is using a glorified copier like those found at FedEx Office, Office Depot and the like. Faithful color is dependent upon the output color profile from an application matching that of the device doing the printing. While I can load and use profiles for most digital printers, they are device-dependent objects and going from one quick printer to another means that the colors will change.

One can get good (accurate) color from a place using a real digital press that has a real DFE driving it. As a decent digital press is a half-million dollars and the DFE can be upwards a 100k or more, they are outside the realm of possibility for a quick printer. A good digital printer will also have profiles available for their equipment.

All of which is why, in XDP, if color is remotely critical, I use CMYK swatch books, use the CMYK color model in XDP while designing, and use the proper output profile. While it may not be properly showing me those colors on-screen, XDP will output them to PDF properly.

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Originally Posted by mwenz

Xara applications' Show Print Colors is only useful in the sense that it *can* show that there will be a shift in color. There is no CMYK document color space, there is no CMYK (or RGB for that matter) profile that can be used to alter on-screen color into a working space. That's what I mean by "Xara applications are not color managed."
Depending on the output profile, color values, including CMYK, is properly represented in a PDF.

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Yes. That's true.
What do you mean under "output profile"? Profiles by PDF export? Xara does not use profiles. Or I do not know something?

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Originally Posted by mwenz

I also have recommended people have a swatch document printed. But it's only really useful when taking work to a quick printer. That is, a printer who is using a glorified copier like those found at FedEx Office, Office Depot and the like. Faithful color is dependent upon the output color profile from an application matching that of the device doing the printing. While I can load and use profiles for most digital printers, they are device-dependent objects and going from one quick printer to another means that the colors will change.

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This method I use too. I'll print first my document in a digital print service. Deduction shall be seen about 20% darker than offset. But the colors are usually correct.
I work mostly with same print house, so I can quickly assess.

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Originally Posted by mwenz

All of which is why, in XDP, if color is remotely critical, I use CMYK swatch books, use the CMYK color model in XDP while designing, and use the proper output profile. While it may not be properly showing me those colors on-screen, XDP will output them to PDF properly.

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Yes, the printer read the color values that I have given. But I want more security. Print preview mode in Xara very helpful, but there are color spaces the oven clearly not covered. In the case with dark brown situation is very critical and unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by digitalphaser

Xara does not use profiles...

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Sorry. I meant as in Photoshop where I can select different profiles for specific color space. Can something Xara?

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Originally Posted by digitalphaser

...What do you mean under "output profile"? Profiles by PDF export? Xara does not use profiles. Or I do not know something?

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In XDP (Xara designer Pro) one can set the output profile when creating a PDF. In the instance below, I not only needed to have the color represented accurately for this ad, I needed to have a TAC of 250%, which is one of the uses of output profiles. Do note the color shifts as well. In what you can see in XDP with the Show Printer colors enabled, the green would take upon quite a shift compared to Acrobat, though the numbers are the same.

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Also, Xara applications that allow this do not show the entire contents of the Windows Spool folder. One needs to select the file type dropdown and have it display all files.

Mike

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Originally Posted by digitalphaser

Sorry. I meant as in Photoshop where I can select different profiles for specific color space. Can something Xara?

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No. That is because PS, AI, CD, PP, DP, etc., are color managed applications. Xara applicaitons have no concept of color space profiles or working spaces. Whatever it uses (maybe the OS RGB profile), it is hard-baked into the application. XDP only supports a PDF export condition.

I and maybe a few others have requested at minimum configurable color working spaces in the past.

Yes, I do the same with a few additions in the printer settings.
And my print house allowed TAC of 300-320%.

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Attachment 107270

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Originally Posted by mwenz

No. That is because PS, AI, CD, PP, DP, etc., are color managed applications. Xara applicaitons have no concept of color space profiles or working spaces. Whatever it uses (maybe the OS RGB profile), it is hard-baked into the application. XDP only supports a PDF export condition.

I and maybe a few others have requested at minimum configurable color working spaces in the past.

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A pity really. Although the software that has name Pro, can be a bit more to offer. Recent improvements as responsive web design etc. have not made me happier.

Yes, various output conditions allow greater/lesser TAC. The job from my screen shot was intended for newsprint in the UK and so the TAC is much lower than any of the FOGRA conditions.

It would be nice, failing an actual Document-level color spaces to be defined, if Xara at least tied a user-selected output condition to the Show Print Colors button.

One reason I still use CMYK color books even in color-managed applications, is because I began doing print work on an amber monitor using PCs. No chance to even see variations in color on-screen. Later, when paper white monitors became available, I marveled that at least then I could see gray shading for given colors. Then, when VGA monitors became available, PC applications were still not color-managed so the color books were still relevant. Perhaps it is still out of habit (and necessity in XDP) that I still use them. And I have several from straight CMYK color swatch books to a couple with harmonious CMYK swatches for thematic use, etc.

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Originally Posted by digitalphaser

A pity really. Although the software that has name Pro, can be a bit more to offer. Recent improvements as responsive web design etc. have not made me happier.

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You me and others.

But there are, to me, more important things I would place ahead of being color-managed if all my wishes couldn't be incorporated. Like OpenType features. I would place that above color management in my desires if I could only have one request fulfilled. Print on all plates would be another (tied to a real Registration color). And perhaps several drawing features would be above it.

Mike