Book Page Numbers

I took on a charity job for a little old lady that resembles grandma from Tweety Pie. Of course, I now wish I hadn't.

Her book about her ancestors, from a 15 year old girl being sentenced to 5 years exile in Australia in 1843 for stealing 6 buttons worth 1 shilling each, right up to the Covid-19 Pandemic. 250 pages, written over a period of 6 or 7 years, in Word, with different fonts, different formatting, different everything that could be different. However, armed only with a borrowed Designer Pro machine the whole thing was whipped into obedience; much like the poor girl tossed into a ship all those years ago.

We can now see the light at the end of the tunnel. Only page numbers and a final proof read to go. The page numbers are required to start from page 9 onwards. Granny wants the first 8 un-numbered as they are pedigree charts, salutations and general 'stuff'. I failed. I can't keep the first 8 pages number free.

Does anybody have a trick that would work for this poor old lady (okay, me). Think of that young girl who wouldn't have been told that absolutely everything in Australia is poisonous and wants to kill you. Nor would she have been told those giant hoppy things randomly jump out of the bush right in front of your car for no apparent reason whatsoever. Don't let her suffering be in vain.

Can you not just place a box over the page numbers you don't want to show.

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Adding page numbers
To quickly add page numbers into your document - use the INSERT menu to select PAGE
NUMBER and choose a number format and a page position from the INSERT PAGE NUMBER
dialog. They will appear as Repeating Objects (on page 105) throughout your document.

By default the first page of your document will be 1, but if you have pages which you
don't want numbered at the start of the document, like contents or acknowledgments
pages, then you can get round this by giving the first page a - (minus) value. So if you
have three pages of content that you don't want numbered, enter -2 into the FIRST PAGE
IS: field, and then the pages you want to be numbered will start at 1. The sequence will
be...
-2, -1, 0, 1 etc.

Then delete the minus and zero page numbers from your document. If using numeral
values the - (minus) number will be replaced by a #.

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from the manual - hope it helps - not done it myself you understand

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Originally Posted by Christine Farrelly

Can you not just place a box over the page numbers you don't want to show.

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Unfortunately, no. I want page 9 to show as page 1. Covering the numbers would still leave page 9 as showing '9'.

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Originally Posted by handrawn

from the manual - hope it helps - not done it myself you understand

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I did try this, but it counted down from -8 to -1, then 9. However, I'll do it again as I didn't delete the -8 to -1...maybe that's the trick.

Nope, didn't work. I also tried cutting the first 8 pages, insert the page numbers, then told them to stop repeating. I then pasted the first 8 back in place. The first 8 had no numbers...I was encouraged. Hopped down to the ninth page...'9', loud and proud.

One step closer though. If I can stop the numbers updating, rather than repeating, the above method would work.

Gary P does books in xara - he may know - last time I did a book in xdp it didnt have page numbers, had to do it manually !

Yep. Page numbering is always a PITA.

The first page in the book is an odd number, The first left is the inside cover. So page 1 is the first right facing page. And most books do not start until the front matter is covered, copyright page, title page, etc. This should not be that hard but whoever came up with this numbering scheme never designed a book.

Once you finally get the numbers to work then you can delete the prior - numbers and select Delete from just this page.

Try this:

Chris, these approaches are separate:

Xara

• Use existing & repeating page numbering or Insert > Page number.
• Change the starting value on the first page to -8.
• Delete from the first eight pages.

JavaScript

• Create a Text blob - I used Bold Red "Page Number" as boilerplate; anything you fancy as it is replaced.
• Make Repeating Object.
• Delete from the first eight pages.
• Add Name, htmlclass="pageNo".
• Add Website Code (body):
  <script>
  $('.pageNo').each( function(page) {
  $(this).text("Page " + (page + 1)); // Its starting number
  });
  </script>
• Ensure some shape has the special Name, UsesJQuery.

CSS

• Create a Text blob - I used Bold Red " " (a space) as boilerplate.
• Make Repeating Object.
• Delete from the first eight pages.
• Add Name, htmlclass="pageNo".
• Add Website Code (head):
  <style>
  body {
  /* Set "my-page-counter" to its pre-starting number */
  counter-reset: my-page-counter 0;
  }
  .pageNo::before {
  /* Increment "my-page-counter" by 1 */
  content: " Page " counter(my-page-counter);
  counter-increment: my-page-counter;
  }
  </style>

Do note the last two do not render directly into PDF, but I included then as they are, by far, more versatile than Xara.

Acorn

Acorn - How hard do you think this would be for Xara to implement? It is so basic. Click page. Start page numbers HERE.

Also, you state, use Website... etc. This is a print document. Is this still going to work?

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Acorn - How hard do you think this would be for Xara to implement? It is so basic. Click page. Start page numbers HERE.

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Gary, what's difficult about starting @ -8?

having set it up, what happens if you need to add/remove a page prior to the page you want the numbers to start on.. do you have to resequence the count.. very clumsy compared to just entering an absolute page number that you want the page count to start on..

also whilst I have your attention, is there a good reason why the absolute page count on the status bar is tied to the page at the top of the screen when zoomed out in multipage view and not on the page that is focused for editing/printing - I can't think of one offhand and it is, to me, a darn nusience

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Gary, what's difficult about starting @ -8?

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You want to take away my excuse to kavetch?

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Originally Posted by Egg Bramhill

Gary, what's difficult about starting @ -8?

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Egg, where to start. No accommodation of Section / Chapter / Page / Annex / Appendix / Sidebar / Footnote / Heading / Sub-Heading / Table. No means to change Style (Arabic, Roman Upper, roman lower, other) mid-flow. No smart Table of Contents. No integration with SmartText. No number base change. No reset of any kind. Basically, things you actually need in a Desktop Publishing Application.

@Gary, I started using the CSS approach ages back and then realised if fails for PDF.
Since then I have not looked at the @page styling, which probably would work for PDF.

I have given up with Xara for long documents as it drags itself to death for editing and any real changes of style.
I tend to use Affinity Publisher and its siblings for print.

Acorn

+1 for affinity publisher

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Originally Posted by handrawn

+1 for affinity publisher

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Unless the book is fairly long/involved, requires running headers that update accordingly, doesn't receive several text revisions ... etc. Oh. And one doesn't really want a 500 page book with a fair amount of quality images and not take up 1 or more gigabytes per revision.

But otherwise? Sure.

yes well you look on it as a professional printer no doubt

if I want something done that way I'd pay someone like you, same as I would pay someone for a website [outside of basic WP]

;)

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Originally Posted by handrawn

yes well you look on it as a professional printer no doubt

if I want something done that way I'd pay someone like you...

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I do make a living doing layout. But I fail to understand the distinction--except the pricing between Affinity Publisher and other options.

The free version of Viva Designer may well suit people needing more control and output. Certainly the free Scribus is capable. Both are even less than Affinity products even when on sale...

Generally, I recommend just using Word if one has it, LibreOffice Writer (free) if not. The typographical control, numbering, TOC, indexing, foot/end notes, sections and graphic handling are more than up to a "non-professional's" book making.

Doing a book in something entirely not made for it (Xara applications) is not a pro-vs-non-pro issue.

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kvetch

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Had to look that one up Gary ;)

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Egg, where to start .....

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Acorn, I was only answering the OP's question, not writing an essay on Xara's DTP failings :D

@Egg. I tried starting at -8 before posting on here originally. I have no explanation as to what happened, but mine went -8,-7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,9,10,11 etc.

Having said that it clearly does work, so I played. I think this was the last thing I did before the technology god smiled upon me:
I had cut the first 8 pages thinking that I would number the rest then plonk the blank ones above...which failed. All other attempts subsequently failed. I then used an auto-backup from before the cut and paste and the -8 method suddenly did as everyone else said it would.

Coincidence? Maybe. We'll likely never know as I'm putting this in the rear view and moving on.

@Acorn. Thanks for the alternatives, but I do need to export to PDF.

@ Gary. "page numbers are a PITA". The voice of experience.

If you want page 9 to show as page 1, you should perhaps have made it page 1 by dividing the book into two separate files, and combining the two in one PDF.

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Originally Posted by Chris M

Unfortunately, no. I want page 9 to show as page 1. Covering the numbers would still leave page 9 as showing '9'.

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Originally Posted by mwenz

I do make a living doing layout. But I fail to understand the distinction--except the pricing between Affinity Publisher and other options.

The free version of Viva Designer may well suit people needing more control and output. Certainly the free Scribus is capable. Both are even less than Affinity products even when on sale...

Generally, I recommend just using Word if one has it, LibreOffice Writer (free) if not. The typographical control, numbering, TOC, indexing, foot/end notes, sections and graphic handling are more than up to a "non-professional's" book making.

Doing a book in something entirely not made for it (Xara applications) is not a pro-vs-non-pro issue.

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years ago there was a discussion here about what makes a 'professional' - for me it is someone who works on a formal basis for a client/company/entity, and that can be on a freelance basis, and it includes unpaid work eg charity(non-profit)

I agree that the tools used do not define this, that was not my point; my point was that the professional is likely to see more possibilities because of their experience although that is not a given, and a non-professional is more likely to accecpt 'compromises' again not a given

and within budget a non-professional may have more leeway to use software they actually enjoy using, yet again not a given

I like using affinity publisher; it's a long time ago, but I did not like scribus when I tried it out...

I tried the -number and it works. But if a person wanted the page number to be on the bottom outside corner of the book, how would that be done. In my test it would put the number on all pages at the same spot on the page. You could not move it without changing them all.

Ray

That's why you'd use an A4 Double Page Spread Ray., I don't think you can do it on a single page.

That was it, thanks Egg,

Ray

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Originally Posted by lex

If you want page 9 to show as page 1, you should perhaps have made it page 1 by dividing the book into two separate files, and combining the two in one PDF.

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Yes, I'm looking at using a PDF editor to look after the final touches as much out of curiosity than anything else.

I don't intend on doing books in the future, but it's good to play with something new and gain experience. I have no doubt that there are better tools out there, but I have to say Xara did a grand job of it.

I didn't have the know how. The Word docs were in different formats, fonts generally mismatched, but I found it easy enough to end up with a decent result in the end. The hardest part was working out that Word anchors everything (especially photos) and moving a line of text is the equivalent of releasing the 4 Horsemen. Gaps appear, photos dive for cover on a completely new page, titles give up the will to live and implode. I ended up simply copying every photo I came across, adding text repel and I was back in control.

Selecting all the text on each section and making sure the line spacing, paragraph spacing and font details were all the same was also a must and easily accomplished. Once again, Xara may not the best tool, but certainly capable and I'd do the same again without any trepidation.