No my question was not complete. thread was closed before my final comments

@xara

Hi Samantha

#1 If I had not posed the questions, I would not have seen this document
We've posted a link to it in Announcements and the moderators have been briefed to link to it


This is a lovely thought. If the customer comes to the forum. Not everyone prefers public chat, forum support. Some customers are shy about asking for help and prefer help manuals, watching videos or contacting support areas privately. Xara should provide this info directly.
Acorn and others have done well to explain to me the way to get the content into my machine and save it for future. I appreciate their assistance and guidance. And you should also since they still support your software and gave specific information that I and others need. Even if they had pointed me to your document, it did not answer my questions fully. So again, Acorn and others were necessary.

#2 "if you re-install your product on a new computer after the Update Service has expired then the new installation will fall back to the version you last purchased."
If you purchased in February, when you reinstall after expiry you will get 16.3, the version current on the day you registered. If you download it from download.com or whatever, and it's older, it will auto-update to 16.3.

Well..this is good news. :D
Thank you for providing the direct answer I came seeking.
Shame it took so long to get to this point.
FYI, I downloaded directly from Xara.com, not download.com or other 3rd party. From your description, I received an "older copy". This surprises me. Why wouldn't Xara offer the most current version?

#3 All content is now online, it should appear automatically and immediately in the Online Content Catalog as soon as your register you copy. You don't have to click download or anything else to see the content (not since v7 anyway!). The same goes for any content we release while your Update Service is current. I don't know why this has not worked for you. I'm not clear if you can now see it all, if not I recommend you contact Magix support @ https://support2.magix.com/customer/. You can download anything you see in the Online Content Catalog to your local computer, then you will see it in the Local Designs Gallery.

Since version 7? This is a misleading statement, maybe inaccurate by some standards.
I have used many versions since 2004.
I have version 10 and 11 on other very old computers. I also put version 11 on the same computer as my new 16. All were installed from the CD. All contain a ton of LOCAL content and additional content online that could be imported.
I was not dependent on an internet connection to get basic content. I expected the same from version 16. Some local content, some in the online catalog. I often travel to two areas that have no internet connection. Being 100% dependent on the internet is not acceptable and should have been told.

"as to what other companies are doing..." Yes, we all do it differently. Adobe for example has a different model, where obviously you lose access to everything, program and all, when your subscription expires. We have all made our different decisions about the best way forward, and what we must all try our best to do is explain how our model works.

You have the right to choose a business model. Sadly Xara did not explain the current model well at all. Online offering the program you mention an "online catalog". Sure we have had additional content for many versions. Not for 100% content online, not that we lose connection to the only content offered after 365 days. I did not see this in installation, in the program as a popup splash, under the HELP as important information. Instead you depend on a post linked on a forum. That is weak.

Kate @ Xara
I have been respectful in my questions, in my statements and opinions.
I have stated my shock and disappointment in my own thread.

Truly the cherry on the top of the frustration came to find I could not give my final response because the thread was closed. That shows me that Xara really has no concern what a customer thinks. Though not huge account, on a personal basis, I have invested in 28 titles, plus web packs/add-ons and manuals and far more for business purposes. Also recommendations to clients who also purchased.
My continued support of the product is obviously not wanted or needed.
Thank you for personally making me feel unnecessary in your business model.

Xara has always been an impressive program. Hopefully as I work with version 16 I will still feel that way about the software itself.

+1
It is also pleasing to read a well crafted Post. It left me feeling less isol5.

I reread the closed Thread and I recall nothing whatsoever improper in iamtheblues' Post; he simply pointed out that Covid-19 was by far the more serious an issue. I may recollect incorrectly but I'll never know as it was deleted.

Acorn

in her final post in the closed thread kate (webmaster) confirmed that updates are lost if you reinstall on a new or modified computer

so it is very important to capture those updates in the way i mentioned there

i have no other software where such a hack would be necessary

the company can rationalise it any way they wish, but it still instinctively sounds and feels bad...

and so TG FAQs are firmly in fig-leaf territory in this regard - all these issues should be made explicit when you install

i know xara are wholeheartedly committed to online/cloud working, but they do not make themselves look good implementing things the way they have

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Originally Posted by handrawn

in her final post in the closed thread kate (webmaster) confirmed that updates are lost if you reinstall on a new or modified computer

so it is very important to capture those updates in the way i mentioned there

i have no other software where such a hack would be necessary

the company can rationalise it any way they wish, but it still instinctively sounds and feels bad...

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I would have thought that when a new update is available it becomes the default new installer from that date. I don't know why the last dated release before the subscription ended shouldn't be the install that that user has available after the subscription finishes. Easy for Xara to script and they just need to keep the dated installers available.

I guess this is intended to incentivise subscription continuation, but it does seem punative compared with other software vendors.

OK Hope I am deleting the right thread.

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Originally Posted by pauland

I guess this is intended to incentivise subscription continuation, but it does seem punative compared with other software vendors.

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I am inclined to think it is because of the way the magix activation system works - you go back to the registered version you bought, you cannot go back to the last version you downloaded on your unmodified/previous computer because the activation hashtag is then lost... there are other vendors where a similar situation may arise [ableton come to mind] but you just contact them and they sort it.. only xara/magix say no way, because of their 'different way of doing things'...:rolleyes:

@Gary - thanks I think you got it....

@Gary Thank you for bringing back the thread. :D

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Handrawn said: in her final post in the closed thread kate (webmaster) confirmed that updates are lost if you reinstall on a new or modified computer so it is very important to capture those updates in the way i mentioned there

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I purchased in February 2020 so version 16.3 is the version that I would be eligible to reinstall. The install file I downloaded from Xara requires an update to get me to 16.3. I don't trust the program will "auto update" to 16.3.
That means I need to try installing the program on my old beast computer so I can grab the update exe file for future use.

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Handrawn said: I don't know why the last dated release before the subscription ended shouldn't be the install that that user has available after the subscription finishes.

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It makes sense that if the program stops 16 and goes to version 17 during my 365 day service, those updates could not be reinstalled. It goes to a different version than what I purchased.

I agree Handrawn. I am in a current 365 service agreement. Which means I should be eligible to retain and reinstall any update to the version 16 program that arrives during my 365 days. If during my 365 day service agreement we receive a 16.4 update, I should be eligible to retain and reinstall it.

However based on Kate @Xara response, I would NOT be able to reinstall any update I receive after the 16.3, even if it is for the version 16 program. Clearly this means The 365 allows the user to "rent" updates beyond purchase date but does not entitle them to reinstall them.

Hypothetical situation based on her statement: (Please help me to understand if I am wrong)
Let's say I renew my 365 next February 2021.
And update 16.4 and 17.1 arrive during the 2 years between purchase on 02/17/20 and 02/16/2022.
If I stop paying for the 365 service, I revert back to version 16.3 on reinstall since that is the version I purchased.
This convinces me to never renew the 365 service. And not accept or use any update after the 16.3
Thank you @Xara for clarifying.

The better route is to wait until the next full version release, download a 30 day trial, test its capabilities and purchase if I like it.
Grab the content manually since Xara does not provide it and then I know for sure I can reinstall the exact version I purchase.


For me, these are as important as the capabilities of the program itself:
1. Work Offline, not depend on a constant internet connection (due to traveling to areas without internet - yes they still exist!)
2. Reinstall on a new hard drive or new computer when necessary. I have had bad luck. Complete hard drive failures where reinstall was necessary. It happened in 2015 on a brand new DELL computer so age and use do not predict hard drive stability. Sometimes you have no choice.

I have bought the CD versions, not just the download versions for ease of reinstall, content and not depending on internet connection. (That practice has now stopped. I was charged $14.99 for a CD that contained no content, just another copy of the basic program, worthless to me.)

Obviously Xara's current model does not take users like me into account. They expect EVERYONE to have internet connection and don't really want people to reinstall.


Just as an example
This is on the HOME PAGE of my backup software. Nothing hidden, no guesswork. Xara could be this clear about their program.

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When you purchase any software from 2BrightSparks, you receive a perpetual license. This means that you can continue to use the version you purchased indefinitely and without restrictions. The software will not expire. All minor version upgrades are free, e.g. upgrading from V9.1 to V9.2 would be free. However, major version upgrades (e.g. V9 to V10) are not free and you are not entitled to free technical support.

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Originally Posted by samrc

... Let's say I renew my 365 next February 2021.

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No, you are always entitled to the current version on the date you renew. So when you pay to renew the update service in February 2021, you would then forever be entitled to reinstall the version current on that date. Hopefully 17.3 ...

Thank you.

I purchased in Feb 2020. I am locked in for version 16.3 I can play with any updates that come in during this 365 day but all will be lost if I do not upgrade to new version if I have to reinstall next year. Any content will be lost if I do not download/backup for reinstall.

Potentially...A year from now, I purchase the UPGRADE (currently $129) for whatever version is available.
That version is what I can reinstall from that point on. But any further updates & content would be lost if I had to reinstall.

Another program I am updating offered upgrade, with basic 90 day support or a support contract of a year.
I was thinking Xara 365 service was an optional support choice, different than just upgrading to new version for a year. Got it.

As I said before, these are as important as the capabilities of the program itself:
1. Work Offline (local content)
2. Reinstall on a new hard drive or new computer when necessary.

If the 365 service included reinstall of any update to same version (example up to 16.4 from 16.3) then the 365 days service makes sense.

Even with a clearer understanding of the 365 service, I am still convinced I will not accept any updates from here on out. Since I can not reinstall them without a new purchase, they are of no value to me until I want to upgrade to a new version.

@samrc

Hi,

To avoid more confusion, please do not refer to the Update Service as Xara 365 service or even mention 365. Xara dropped that nomenclature a couple of years ago. Magix has products that are actually called xxxx 365. These are real subscription products, meaning that if you don't pay, they don't work anymore. There is no Xara 365. Xara keeps on working after one year, even if you don't renew.

See this link to the UK Update Service.

If you pay for the Update Service 1 year from now, usually meaning an Upgrade to a new version, then you will get updates and new versions for 1 year following that date. If you had to reinstall within that year, then you would get whatever is available on that date, including any new features or versions. If you have to reinstall after the one year is up and you have not renewed, then the program reverts to whatever was available when you last paid.

What are the chances that you will have to reinstall after the end of the one year period? Likely not very high unless you are planning on getting a new computer or something. Then you have almost no problem. Should you have to reinstall after the end of the one year period and you have not renewed, and you want the features/version that came out, then simply renew at that time. Otherwise, don't renew.

I did not renew when it came up in July. I made sure to download all of the online content before that date and to update to the latest version. I have not had to reinstall Xara since. In fact, I have not had to reinstall Xara for several years; the last time being when I purchased a laptop in 2016. If I have to reinstall Xara, I will pay to renew at that time, or it would revert to version 15, not 16.

Overall, I am better off. Before the update service started, I would have had to pay for version 15 and then again for 16. Now, I have 16 - but I paid for 15. When version 17 comes out, and a few patches later, I may consider renewing. That would likely give me version 17 and then 18 plus a few patches within the year- without having to pay twice like I would have had to do before.

One more thing that people forget. Before the Update Service, we got a lot of content with the program, but most of the good stuff, like almost all of the templates and widgets, we had to purchase separately, piecemeal. When the Update Service started, we got access to ALL of the online content included with an upgrade to the new version by paying for only an upgrade to that version.

Would everyone here like to scrap the Update Service and go back to paying for a new version every year and having to buy the (new) stuff in the online catalogue on top of the upgrade price? Not me.

Magix video editors and Music Maker have an in-app Store in which one can purchase features, presets and content, as bundles or individually. There are things for as little as 69 cents. I don't think that we would like to see something like this happen to the on-line catalogue.

The 365 model isn't correct anyway. In a previous thread of which I am not sure how to find, on one day XDPX worked just fine. I "did not" change hard drive "did not" reinstall the very next day when I started XDPX I got a screen that I needed to register it. I have no clue what happened as I had not changed anything. When I tried to register it, it would not let me as it said that I had used my 2 installs on 2 computers, I was on one of the 2 computers still am. After contacting xara support and having them remove the computer I was on so I could reregister it, it would not work so at that point I had to reinstall to get XDPX to work again and be able to reregister it on the same computer. Lost all of my updates that I had from the previous year. My point being is I did nothing for it to require me to reregister or reinstall it quit working all on its own as it was working just fine when I went to bed the previous evening. Yet because of what the program did I lost all of my updates. So don't think it can't happen and with their model you are back to square one!!!! They should have a way that you can save your updates without them disappearing into thin air once they install since they are going to require you to go back to square one if there is ever a problem whether it is your fault or their programs fault!!!!

buying separately, owning the use indefinitely no matter what computer i use in the future, only buying what i need, no risk of getting locked into an update cycle.. that all sounds good to me....

there is a way to save the update at the time they are ready to install - see the other thread as i mentioned in post #3 here

@handrawn I read your previous post and that would have been helpful back when I could still get updates. One should not have to do work around just to save a update since it will be taken from them if they should ever have to reinstall. Why not just make update a download that I can install myself that way I could at least have the option of saving my updates in a folder for future use. Instead one has to use a work around such as you have shown.

This is an interesting page to work from: https://www.magix.com/gb/photo-graph...pdate-history/.

Initially, many excitements around Templates and Templates and Photo Filters until SmartShapes erupted.
More meaty delivery from Oct 2018 then SmartShapes and SmartShapes.
Web page scaling and Object SVG export.
Finally, PDF/X cropping and Saved angles.

Forecast: v17.0 late March 2020, a five-month wait for - Templates, tweaks to some SmartShapes and little else.
This is because Xara Cloud has all the developers and the desktop applications have to play keep up. There have been some good cross-overs between the SaaS environment and the Desktop but keeping the two locked will always be a drag on the Desktop: SaaS Xara Cloud has 70 updates to a questionable 7 for the Desktop.

Xara 365 service was still in play for v15 so only one major version back.

Acorn

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Update History	Version
April 2017	v12.6 or thereabouts
July 2017	v12.8
December 2017	v15.0
March 2018	???
June 2018	v15.1
October 2018	v16.0
March 2019	v16.1
June 2019	v16.2
October 2019	v16.3

@browj2

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What are the chances that you will have to reinstall after the end of the one year period? Likely not very high unless you are planning on getting a new computer or something. Then you have almost no problem.

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I have had some computers for 6-10 years, well past their prime. I don't like moving into new machines. I have had experiences that were not complete failures, but damaged sectors on drives so certain software needed to be reinstalled. No virus, trojan, or malware caused the problems. Even careful users of computers can have unexpected hardware issues. One brand new DELL died at 5 months old. Drive would not fire up at all. even in an envelope trying to just get data extracted. It was a nightmare. Years ago a gentleman I used to help with website, bought a machine with C: mirrored to D:. C eventually died so he took his machine to "the pc guy" he knew to move D into C slot. Instead, "the pc guy" took out the C, reformatted D and my friend was left with nothing.
So YES having the ability to reinstall is vital for me. Knowing what I can reinstall is vital for me. If you have not had any of these issues you are indeed lucky.

@GypsyJoe
I agree. I am moving into a new laptop so have gone through several software installs. Some make it easy, simple. Place update.exe files in same folder as the install file for easy storage. The way this is done poor. And the information from Xara/Magix is poor.

@Handrawn
I installed v16 on my old monster computer. Thankfully it stayed on long enough for me to register, get the update file (move to external drive) and deregister the machine. Then 11 minutes later...blue screen. =D>:D You and @Acorn have been so helpful with the program and the content. Getting the files onto the external, with notes, I feel so much better. I hope and pray this new machine gives me many years of service. If it doesn't at least I can rebuild my Xara.

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buying separately, owning the use indefinitely no matter what computer i use in the future, only buying what i need, no risk of getting locked into an update cycle.. that all sounds good to me....

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I agree 100%

@Acorn

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Forecast: v17.0 late March 2020, a five-month wait for - Templates, tweaks to some SmartShapes and little else.

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Well, 6 weeks after my purchase of 16, the new version will come out. (heavy sigh)
I'm not going to install it. Don't want to get used to a feature that I will lose if I reinstall.
Thanks for putting my mind at ease that it is not something I will be desperate to have. :D
I am so glad I came to post. I wouldn't have captured the content, or the update file, learned what has happened since I last purchased.

new question.

Established: If I reinstall my v16, I can apply the 16.3 update to it since that is the version that was active as of date of purchase


At end of March another update is scheduled. IF I were to allow it into my machine, and IF I were to copy it to an external drive, upon reinstall a year or so from now, would the program accept the March 2020 update because I already have it locally?
The program has expiry file which stores DATE, not VERSION in the expiry info.
So I see one of these things happening:
EITHER:
- it reads the 365 service expiry date Feb 2021 and says yes, that update was within the 365 days, allows install
OR:
- it reads the 365 service expiry date Feb 2021 and says NO, the update is past 16.3 so not allowed.

I wonder if it would allow the install.... HMMMM :think:

Has anyone tested this?
If I could keep the monster machine working for another year, it would be worth the test on that machine...
Not for daily use, just reinstall beyond 365 days....

Attachment 126448

Samantha, provided you are covered by the Update service, any re-install will allow up to the current and latest version.
A re-install or load must require registration or you just end up with a Trial.

The only sane way to run and keep your last version after Update Service expiry is to install into a virtual machine.
I am sure this would count as one of your two allowed installs but the advantage is you can port to almost any other physical machine there after.
The harder way might be to perform a complete backup.

I have pointed out to Xara that the storing of the Cache in %LocalAppDat% is somewhat contentious as you have the joy of losing it on top of the issue around versioning if a machine dies.

Acorn

P.S. It is always better to raise a new question in a new Thread.
Perhaps a kind Mod will pare this question off for you.

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Originally Posted by Acorn

The harder way might be to perform a complete backup.

I have pointed out to Xara that the storing of the Cache in %LocalAppDat% is somewhat contentious as you have the joy of losing it on top of the issue around versioning if a machine dies.

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I have a daily backup that will capture as an image [clone] all of C: - I think, though i have never yet had to test it, that would facilitate extraction from LocalAppData - certainly that cloned image can be mounted on any windows computer, [that has the backup software installed], as a full virtual drive, and data can be accessed and extracted

EDIT:- is there and opens in the program spot check on mounted backup image:

Attachment 126451

may have to rebuild the catalog if actually restoring ?

As far as the program goes, it usually wants to check for reactivation after an image restore - if I am doing this deliberately I will deactivate the xara program before making the image just to be safe, but I have not yet had to test this outside of an active update service period...

I am not going to add to this thread full of tales of woe and worries about future updates and future-proofing, but doesn't this and all the other threads along similar lines suggest to anyone of sane mind that this is proof of poor decision making by MagiXara? If it were not for Talkgraphics.com and the likes of Acorn and Handrawn, all users of Xara would probably be shouting into a void. It is all very well making provisions for impending disaster, but I see nothing new in the 'flagship' product in recent years to worry about any loss that might cause one to revert to an earlier version.

The version that anyone has installed on their hard drive is probably the one that performs the job that is intended. Backing up the .exe file to an external drive or two is probably all that is required. If one asks oneself the question, 'What will I lose as a result of having to reinstall an earlier version from the last year or two?' the answer will be 'not very much' in all honesty. Stumping up hard-earned dosh for very little return doesn't seem like a fair return, unless, like Acorn you want to be current in order to pose pertinent questions to MagiXara.

I think the answer is to just carry on as if nothing has happened - it is a state of affairs that has been on-going for a few years now in any case.

if, like you and me bob, all you use the program for is to create graphics then what you say is true enough; i don't use the OCC, hardly ever design templates, but there are creators who do, who need this asset downloaded at the very least

Xara have nailed their colours very firmly to the online/cloud mast - it is indicative of who they see their core market/customers as: websites and print

one of these days, i see it comming, i will migrate my xara work entirely over to affinity; as it is, all my DTP is there, and most of my xara work now is legacy - and once again, the affinity version upgrade from ver 7 to ver 8 is completely free and unrestricted for existing customers

it is clear who the xara/magix model benefits [most] and that is them; they as good as said that their cash-flow would improve as a result and the commercial side of me hopes for their sake that it did - just as it hopes online/cloud never becomes a millstone round their [or anyone elses] neck in a crisis, international or otherwise.... but using it day to day [other than for secondary/offsite backup] is not the way I like to work.. call it prudence... call it experience borne of a pre-millennium world that got used to not taking such things for granted ;)

Though I called it a new question, it still dealt with backing up, reinstall of the program & content so I didn't really think it should have it's own thread. :D

Truly had I realized how the Xara product had changed its model,
I wouldn't have purchased this version 16. I would have stayed with 11 that is a full and complete software, with CD...

But thanks to this forum I am ready for a reinstall, whole and safe.
I have my 16.0 install exe.
And the Content installer provided fonts/fills and Panoramic Studio exe files
And the captured Update install exe
And I just copied the folders for cache for designs and fonts.
And a Text file with notes re where to put things & other notes from the 2 threads

I wont do a mirror, or a virtual machine to protect my current install. Years ago, I probably would have.

Yes, I am a dinosaur. I want to use what I purchase, as I see fit, when and where I see fit.
I don't want to upgrade every year. I don't do that on any of my equipment and software.
(Even my refrigerator was purchased in 1980! Doesn't look pretty but still works :))

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but using it day to day [other than for secondary/offsite backup] is not the way I like to work.. call it prudence... call it experience borne of a pre-millennium world that got used to not taking such things for granted

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Well put.
Since I am often in areas without internet access, online services are not my best option.
- Some of my customers are in rural areas with no access to internet. They use computers offline, go to town to have lunch and go online for a while.
- Some of my customers pay for "high speed" and are promised to get "up to" 3MBps speeds. Usually receive less than 1MBps.
Downloading and accessing online content on that is miserable. Streaming is impossible.

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one of these days, i see it comming, i will migrate my xara work entirely over to affinity;

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I have not heard of this. Maybe I need to know more?

So thanks folks for your guidance and making me feel so much better about my v16 purchase.

Affinity have three programs - Designer [vector] Photo [raster] and Publisher [dtp] - they started out on mac to give competiton to Adobe, by offering subscription free programs for Graphic Design and Illustration and then Publishing; all three are also available for Windows

The Ui will take some getting used to after Xara, especially if you are not familiar with Photoshop/Illustrator/In-design - they do not do website generation - they are not a direct replacement, but for generating graphics i find them on balance just as good; Photo has a wider range of bitmap specific fuctions and tools which you would expect from an adobe competitior [which xara never officially claimed to be afaik]

they are an offshoot of Serif and you will find them at https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/ [and not affinity.com who are someone else]

Hi Samantha

I’m very sorry if the thread was closed when you still had something to say. I closed it because experience shows that any questions about the Update Service lead with a dreadful inevitability to an explosion of posts from a handful of members, who are particularly interested in the Update Service, about why they don’t like it, how they would change it, how to circumvent it, and the models that other companies use – but rarely to a direct answer! I have to balance the right of members to repeat their opinions again and again against the frustration of other members who just want a quick answer, a clear explanation of what the Update Service is (as opposed to what it could or should be) and/or feel that the formerly harmonious environment of TG is becoming dominated by repeated fractious discussions of this one issue.

Kate @ Xara

@ everyone

Yes, our delivery model is different to what it was before the Update Service was introduced at v12. Our FAQ describes it as accurately as possible as it now stands. The content is now in the Online Content Catalog, which is not available after the Update Service expires. When you purchase you are buying the software version available on that day, plus access to updates. If you do not want access to updates after that date because you might lose them after a reinstall when your Update Service expires, then I recommend you don’t download them; instead wait until you see updates that you really want and then renew again – pretty much what you used to do before the Update Service!

Someone made the useful suggestion that the FAQ should be more prominent in TG. Good point, I will make it so. I will also review the content on our sites to see if there is something more we could do to overcome the expectations of anyone upgrading pre-v12 versions that the model will be exactly what it was before (without confusing people who have no idea that there ever was a different model!)

On the Update Service I don't think I've got anything left to say that hasn't already been said. Please don't think this is because I am refusing to listen to feedback. A lot of the feedback has been constructive and all of it heartfelt, but responses were compiled and summarized for Magix from the very first threads after the US was released, and not many new suggestions have been posted since. The Update Service is the model that Magix use to deliver all their titles, and clearly they have balanced the Fors (as expressed by browj2) vs the Againsts (as expressed by Acorn, handrawn et al) along with the hard evidence presented by sales. There have been some tweaks but as yet I see no evidence that they plan a major change as a result, although after 30 years experience all I know for sure is that no model is permanent 😊

Kate @ Xara

Nothing is that, including the members you rely on to help out here :)

Thanks

The only thing I have against the update service personally [apart from it being confusing] is that it is unfair to those who lose their computer through no fault of their own and then lose the updates they had - nowhere have i seen this specific addressed in your FAQ's etc, maybe i missed it....

@webmaster, bogeyman here.

I agree your Update Service document, http://shared.xara.com/diNpZUgi2O, needs to be more prominent on TG, in Xara FAQs, Magix FAQs and at time of purchase.

You might review the document in time for the next update.

• <title>cloud.xara Introduction</title> ought to be changed to the proper document title.
• "auto-update" & "fall back". This is really important. Nowhere, and I have checked, do you explain that this "fall back" may impact on the updating of existing design documents as the code that may appear in the "auto-update" is no longer there. You do not explain "free usage of new features released during the 365 days after you purchase" is actually lost to you if you "fall back". This key point is this is not obvious until one has fallen back and without access to earlier sub-version, you cannot know as you have not explicitly declared them; you have to know where to look. [c.f., SmartShape Table 09, Name of "templateMinProgramVersion:15.1.0"] You cannot apply this approach to Text Fitting, Ligatures, SmartFields and the like so the designer is hung out to dry.
• "...you’ll be working with the latest features and operating systems, ..." I might not appreciate you updating my operating systems. This does need a little rework.
• "Bug fixes". Can you explain whether the Patch Release 15.1.0.53605 covering SmartShape Tables counts as a bug fix and similarly the continuing failure of SmartShape Tables to function as advertised (https://www.talkgraphics.com/showthr...09-Serious-Bug) in version 16.3.1 is handled for those out of Update Service cover for a function that was released at version 15 and has yet to be rectified?
• Your prior comment about "When you purchase you are buying the software version available on that day, plus access to updates." contradicts the document as it states "Software which includes the Update Service will usually* auto-update to the latest version at the time of registration - that means you can be sure that once you register, you’ll be working with the latest features and operating systems, regardless of the date and place of purchase." The most clear statement has to be "If you are purchasing for the first time then the 365 days start at the time of registration."
• "expiry date". The second link in "Otherwise sign in to the Magix Service Center on magix.com (or on xara.com/products) and select My Products" is nugatory; it add three wasted links to get to the place given by the first link.
• "...when we move to a full new version eg v15 or v16. In those cases you will need to download a new installer.." - no explanation that all prior configurations will then be lost, including downloads into the cache folder.
• "new feature releases" - templates are not new features. Tables 01 to Table 12 are still one SmartShape table design (one feature) just as over 1 million royalty-free images is just one feature. Five months between releases does not demonstrate "a more consistent level of pre-release testing and post-release support, ...".
• "Online Content Catalog(ue)" - no mention of Download All.

Acorn

Hi Kate,

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I closed it because experience shows that any questions about the Update Service lead with a dreadful inevitability to an explosion of posts from a handful of members, who are particularly interested in the Update Service, about why they don’t like it, how they would change it, how to circumvent it, and the models that other companies use – but rarely to a direct answer!

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TG is the only forum that I know of where members can post their feelings regards Xara Designer. If you feel that these are expressions of dislike from 'a handful of members' perhaps you'd like to post a a poll and get an across the board inication of our true feelings? The direct answer is that your users don't like it and that the solution no longer lays in Xara's hands but within Magix's control.

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posts from a handful of members, who are particularly interested in the Update Service

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that did put a wry smile on my face when I first read it... any other circumstance you would think particularly interested members would be most welcome to discuss a topic :-O

;)

@webmaster. If I may add my two cents. I understand that you have the task of keeping order on the forum, and that it is not a small task. I think that what many members are expressing is a sense that we are being censored. Even if our complaining is a moot form of venting (though we may hope that it will provoke a change), the idea that we would be kept from it feels a bit offensive. All of us have paid for the Xara products; many of us keep our subscription completely up to date; and others update but less frequently. Censoring us does not foster a good relationship. Thanks for reading.

Thank you @Xara for one last statement.

The list Acorn posted is a valid inquiry. I hope it is given consideration for the next release.

The last item pertains to my situation

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"Online Content Catalog(ue)" - no mention of Download All.

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For those users like myself that need to work offline it is important and should be noted better.

Purchasing and downloading from Xara, as I did should have been an install file 16.3 not 16.0 then an update. I went directly to the maker of the program not a third party seller. I highly recommend that be fixed so future customers do not experience the frustration and panic I went through.

Regardless of the model Xara/Magix uses, the process could be better. More informative.
And more inclusive of the offline users.

Prior to your post, I had made a decision.
I will apply my pending update to the version 11 I have installed and nothing further to the 16.

@handrawn

I looked that software you mentioned and ended up loading photo onto my ipad. May get designer too if I like the photo app.
I was looking for a decent photo editor for my newish ipad (FINALLY replaced my ipad 2 after 10 years). Thanks for recommendation.
May end up playing with the windows version but it doesn't look like it has a trial period...

I used the full Adobe suite for a few years at home and at work. Long ago I was working with Illustrator & Xara side by side. Though I still used illustrator for work projects when necessary, I found Xara really was the better choice for me personally. I found it intuitive, easier to manipulate, better support and a lot more fun!

I used photoshop for work projects. For home I began with Paint Shop Pro (started with JASC, then Corel) so it is still my primary photo editor. The last FULL adobe suite I personally bought was long ago, maybe CS4??? The upgrades were too pricey for my personal budget, especially when I really did prefer other software. I was hooked on Corel through wordperfect. Put it in my mother's computer when she wanted a word processor (the hidden code reveal was the best feature ever). Sadly in USA, MS Word became king.

windows/mac have affinity trials, ipad i don't think so - see here: https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/designer/#top - click on the program on the top menu and then 'buy now' and you will should a link for the trial

I used Jasc PSP ver 9, the last before Corel took over, it came with a 3 month trial... heck that was long enough in those days to last out windows XP / 98 SE before it needed a rebuild ! :D - being a squirrel I still have it somewhere, but don't use it, don't even know if it will still run, my adobe CS2 struggles these days on up to date windows 10 - I tried adobe photoshop [photography package] 10 GPB a month, initially i thought it was well worth it and was impressed with it's brush capability, but after a while I reverted back to what i had been using two of which, Affininity and Painttool SAI 2 I don't pay for updates at all, having bought once - [in the latter case in 2011 and not to be confused with the program SAi online]

PT-SAI 2 is an excellent no-frills, highly focused, drawing/painiting tool for freehand artists, some love it, manga especially, some don't; technically beta but most of the time you would not know it, had more issues over the years with xara releases.... :rolleyes:

I use corel painter, grew up with it from version 5, again, a while before corel took it over, you needed to love it to put up with it on a PC in those days

And I remember wordperfect, on unix workstations, before there was a photoshop and adobe was still a hut in the desert to the non-digital....

I love the xara interface, used the program since 2003, but I really only use a small part of it most f the time, the webstuff never.... at the end of the day, it's what you feel comfortable with and gets the job done...

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Originally Posted by webmaster

the Fors (as expressed by browj2) vs the Againsts (as expressed by Acorn, handrawn et al)

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I have no experience of Magix's products other than the one that was forced on us on XDA install or the fantastical ASEOPS software that is parked on my machine purposeless. What is wrong with the Magix model imposed on Xara is that it is wholly inappropriate for applications that produce outcomes that are locked to a version that may disappear. Try selling MS Office where Tables no longer can be edited and see how long that lasts. You then conflate my disdain for the SmartShapes that you have focused on as a result of Xara Cloud development; you have failed to integrate them onto the XDA design page and the outputs to web are a disaster for screen readers. Locking content behind a paywall is niggardly. Do so for templates, if you must. I can buy better for permanent use elsewhere, but leave the Components that are at the heart of our design efforts accessible. Most of your recent deliveries are buggy to an unprecedented degree and the Update Service Model (use 'em & confuse 'em) is incapable of delivering separated bug fixes or you have chosen to overlook doing so. Finally, to then allow Magix to package and force unwanted Newsfeeds and badly implement them to the detriment of your product is inexplicable.

To summarise I have the fullest support for the Update Service provided the "fall back" is eradicated. The rest of the faults we can take on one a time.

Acorn

I use Magix Music Maker, and SoundForge - do I get these problems, no

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Originally Posted by acorn

Try selling MS Office where Tables no longer can be edited and see how long that last

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rotflmao

that more or less sums it up dosn't it...

I have been in the possition of trying to defend the indefensible, it is not a nice place to be... I am not saying this is the case necessarily with the magix update serviceas far as xara is concerned, but I wonder if they realised they were contracting into a model that does not really suit the application, in the way that you have outlined, and if they did they must have had a reason...:think:

anyway the point is well made i think...

Hello, et al here - just saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the comments from Acorn and Handrawn above. We have been served with an absolute Dog's Breakfast as far as recent Magix-tainted releases are concerned. But you all know that already. As far as I am concerned, the program now means far less to me than it used to. Thank goodness for Affinity Designer.

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Originally Posted by handrawn

I use Magix Music Maker, and SoundForge - do I get these problems, no.

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@handrawn,

Music Maker is free and the Plus and Premium versions unlock presets, features and give you a choice of instruments and Soundpools with credits. Thus, there is no Update Service. But, you can buy additional presets, features, instruments and Soundpools from the in-program Store.

SoundForge is not on the Update Service plan, likely because Magix has not planned on releasing interim new features, just new versions. The program is relatively mature.

I agree that the main problem is that if you have to reinstall and are outside of the Update Service period, the program rolls back and recent projects may not be able to function correctly (if at all). However, that is a risk that one should be willing to take knowing that this is how the Update Service works. Bite the bullet and renew if this should occur. After all, it is your problem, not that of Magix/Xara if you have to reinstall.

Kate,

Please make a really good sticky. Give links to the definition page of the Update Service and to the article on the Update Service in the Magix Magazine.

I find it frustrating that once in a while, someone comes along and starts questioning the whole thing as if it's something new that they just discovered, bla bla bla, and we start the entire discussion again.

Thanks,

365 only makes sense if you can keep what you get during the 365 days.
Gain updates, new features during the 365 day period. They are included if you have to reinstall.
This makes sense. That's what I thought when I bought 16.

With the current model, if you allow updates into your program during the 365 days, you are running trial versions that will expire (at time of reinstall).
I do not see the point of allowing us to play with features we can not keep.
Build your project with it and have to fall backward to purchase date.
The project is not viable from that point forward because it depends on features that are no longer available.
"Try selling MS Office where Tables no longer can be edited and see how long that last"
EXACTLY.

So better to treat it as install what you get at purchase (plus my 16.3 update) and just use it till you replace it with a more modern version.

If new features are intriguing, bring in a new trial version of the software. As long as the trial install doesn't corrupt a current install.

@browj2

thank you john - that is not really news to me - I was just replying to what kate said - you see, you have made exactly the point - it does not happen with soundforge, so it does not have to happen with xara, this update model is not mandatory

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After all, it is your problem, not that of Magix/Xara if you have to reinstall

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well thank you for that; no offence, but I am sure you know what arrogance and hubris both mean - the need to reinstall is not always a choice - that is the point

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I find it frustrating that once in a while, someone comes along and starts questioning the whole thing as if it's something new that they just discoveredbla bla bla, and we start the entire discussion again

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as it happens I don't, the only way to get this point accross to everyone is to put it all in as a mandatory read in the installer, and even then I suspect most will skim it unless it is made very concise with appropriate links to here - as said earlier not everyone visists this forum automatically

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I find it frustrating...

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in the context of your reply may I gently suggest that is your problem ?

My ONLY issue with this is BUG FIXES. Even if you are out of update service, you should still be able to get bug fixes for your current version.

So if a bug is discovered in 15.0 and fixed in 15.0.3 you should get that, but what happens if a bug in 15.0 is fixed in 15.3.1 where 15.3 was a feature update. I particularly mention 15.0 due to the squash/stretch debacle ... I donb't like the idea that you can't get a bug fix because there was a feature update before it was discovered.