Help with probably my last rodeo

Hi,
About 4 years ago I bought my current windows 10 pro system:
intel 8 core i7-4790 cpu @ 3.60 ghz
8 gb ram
graphic card-nvidia geforce gt 720
monitor-hp w/2207 native resolution 1680 x 1050 at 60 hz. Probably 5 years+ old.

When I bought this system I never dreamed I would get into 2d let alone 3d graphics. But here I am :).
I would like some recommendation on components for a new system that will allow me to get the best visual
impact from the graphics working within 3d apps like anim8or, art of illusion, blender and renderers native
to those apps (like cycles, pov-ray etc). My old eyes leave a lot to be desired so I could use all the
help I can get. In researching this myself I'm finding most recommendations are targeted to gaming
which is certainly not my priority (at least now it isn't :). On top of that is the ever growing plethora
of these components to choose from. It's rather bewildering to wade thru. And as I do not have
money to burn I would like to stay under 1400usd (I do not need top tier anything :). I'm really trying
to better appreciate the visual graphics than what my current setup allows.
I'd really appreciate any feedback.
stephen

Bit of background first so that you have something to base the value of my opinion.
I build/repair Windows machines for a living, and have done for 18 years. This is good because I know what I'm talking about, but bad because I'm very blasé about swapping out parts.

Presuming you don't have any issues with your current machine:
Your CPU is powerful enough, which means your motherboard is fine too, along with your version of Windows 10...you've just saved around AU$500.

If you can, find an independent repair shop. The franchise and big box stores are generally useless at this type of thing and simply advise you to buy that brown box on the second shelf. Ask the independent for his advice, but have in mind the following:
Cloning your Hard Drive onto an SSD. (big speed increase)
Upgrading your RAM (memory) 16GB if fine, 32 better, 64 waste of time (power increase)
I wouldn't know about your video card as I don't have any customers who do 3D other than CAD at a professional level, and they use Quadro cards. Maybe overkill, not sure. The GT 720 is a weak card by today's standard.
I find screens very much a personal preference affair. 4K for sharpness if your 3D software supports it, twin 27" HD for flexibility, single 24" HD for keeping money in your wallet. Wander into Big Box store to see the difference of the ones on display.

I would upgrade memory at least to 16 GB and use rest of the money to buy better graphics card and a decent size 4k monitor. Just about any current gaming graphics card performs well for you intended purpose and there is not much point getting Quadro or similar. ( For example I have Asus Turbo GeForce GTX 1070 on my system and is plenty fast for 3D modelling + pretty much silent in operation. )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OLD.GEZIER

Hi,
About 4 years ago I bought my current windows 10 pro system:
intel 8 core i7-4790 cpu @ 3.60 ghz
8 gb ram
graphic card-nvidia geforce gt 720
monitor-hp w/2207 native resolution 1680 x 1050 at 60 hz. Probably 5 years+ old.

When I bought this system I never dreamed I would get into 2d let alone 3d graphics. But here I am :).
I would like some recommendation on components for a new system that will allow me to get the best visual
impact from the graphics working within 3d apps like anim8or, art of illusion, blender and renderers native
to those apps (like cycles, pov-ray etc). My old eyes leave a lot to be desired so I could use all the
help I can get. In researching this myself I'm finding most recommendations are targeted to gaming
which is certainly not my priority (at least now it isn't :). On top of that is the ever growing plethora
of these components to choose from. It's rather bewildering to wade thru. And as I do not have
money to burn I would like to stay under 1400usd (I do not need top tier anything :). I'm really trying
to better appreciate the visual graphics than what my current setup allows.
I'd really appreciate any feedback.
stephen

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I'd suggest that you do very little to update your system until you actually find it limiting. You could spend a lot of money and still be producing 3D stuff that you could do just as well using the system that you already have. Get into 3D first, spend money later when you understand what you need.

I think you could waste a lot of money for little benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pauland

I'd suggest that you do very little to update your system until you actually find it limiting. You could spend a lot of money and still be producing 3D stuff that you could do just as well using the system that you already have. Get into 3D first, spend money later when you understand what you need.

I think you could waste a lot of money for little benefit.

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+1

If you do find you need to spend money ... then a graphics (video card) upgrade is probably a good idea.

I'd suggest some slightly older video cards that you could pick up at a lower cost. Preferably with 4GB of memory ... Something along the lines of a NVIDIA Geforce GTX1060 or and AMD RX560. They should be plenty good enough.

You didn't say that you needed more speed but as mentioned earlier an SSD would help with that, and maybe another 8GB of RAM.

Apart from that, your processor and by association, your motherboard are more than adequate.

However, as Paul said, Try it out and see how it goes with what you have, then add pieces as necessary. I don't think you need to get a new system.

not in the computer hardware trade but been building my own windows computers since 1991

upgrading your computer - not possible to give specific advice without knowing what your motherboard actually is; it is unwise to buy a component and assume it will work with your system, you would need to get advice as Chris said

About 4 years ago I bought my current windows 10 pro system:
windows 10 that's a given unless you wish to run mac/linux and I see no reason to unless you need a specific program that does not run on windows
intel 8 core i7-4790 cpu @ 3.60 ghz
should be fine provided nothing else in the system is throttling it
8 gb ram
a bit low, I would say 16 GB minimum, and 32 GB would be better - incidently I have 64 GB and I find that helps with some programs such as SAI/Painter/Harmony - Chris is right to point out the power increase though; it is crucial that your power supply can cope with all of your upgraded components with a margin to spare, and like any kit with fans make sure you buy quiet ones
graphic card-nvidia geforce gt 720
this is definately weak, some rendering programs will crawl - mine is GTX 1070, and you will need that sort of GPU power at least, sooner or later for any serious rendering; some of the higher spec graphics cards are also big beasts and will not fit in small cases
monitor-hp w/2207 native resolution 1680 x 1050 at 60 hz. Probably 5 years+ old
Personal preference indeed - you can go into respose times and colour gamut, and the display technology, but at the end of the day, if you do not need to fit into a team, your eyes and your viewing are your guide

monitors are not part of the computer, so you can deal with them seperately, which brings me to what paul said, and i would agree that you should not spend money unless you have to

if your computer is getting unacceptably slow then you can then think about upgrading, meanwhile the best move you might make could be a second monitor, once you see the benefit of having your drawing area on one screen and the dialog and option boxes on the second you may never wish to go back - but note, can become a pain if the two monitors are not the same native resolution

Apologies for being tardy.

"I find screens very much a personal preference affair...Wander into Big Box store to see
the difference of the ones on display."
"your eyes and your viewing are your guide"

Subjectivity is a crutch for those that can't read my mind. Really...must I do everything? :)

When I render an image in mandelbulber or structure synch or any fractal app I would like
the design/colors to grab me by the cojones. When I render a scene in pov-ray I want to
be blown away by the richness of the colors. When I use a uv editor to apply textures to
faces I want that mesh to be alive with the textures. Everything I do now involving color
"seems" to be wildly under whelming. It does grab me. But by the throat (as in cough, cough).
On the other hand am I a victim of my own imagination? Have I bought an expectation from
Nvidia marketing that cannot be realistically met?

Thanks everyone for giving me advice from your considerable knowledge and experience.
At the end of the day if I pony up and my expectations are met it's on me. If I'm disappointed
it's on you. :)

stephen

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Originally Posted by OLD.GEZIER

At the end of the day if I pony up and my expectations are met it's on me. If I'm disappointed
it's on you. :)

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Haha, we share the same philosophy to life.

Actually, what you described in partial jest is quite helpful in knowing what you're looking for. The visual effects you describe will have more to do with the screen itself than the hardware pushing the image.

Look for a screen that has a glass panel rather than the 'plastic' feel that is very common. High contrast rate and a bright LED back light will better produce the results you're looking for. I'm not a Dell fanboy, but I do think they supply very bright, crisp panels. I'm sure there's others, but the Dell ones stick in my memory.

Stephen, I think my main concern is that your 3D work may not require as much computer power as you think and as far as I know we haven't seen any examples of what you do.

If your 3D models aren't highly complex (in terms of polygons) your graphics card might be fine and give you good render times. It's really a question of knowing what is holding you back.

It's highly unlikely a beefier machine will make you a better 3D artist. A better hardware spec is probably not going to make POV-ray renders look better - that's down to your skill.

is this work just for you, or are you going to publish it on youtube [say] - if you publish, remember that what others see will be modified by their kit.....

that said i agree with what Chris has just said in the main

there is sometimes a compromise to made with monitors between colour gamut plus viewing angle and speed of response, I use an ASUS PB278QR 27 Inch Professional Monitor, WQHD (2560 x 1440), IPS, 100% sRGB, Flicker Free, Low Blue Light and a Wacom Cintiq Pro 24-4K Display/23.6 Inch Pen Display

the wacom is better but way above your budget, and possibly your needs if you don't want to draw on screen

the asus is listed around 700/800 GBP but you can pick it up from amazon UK at the moment for just over 220 GBP : https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 maybe there will be offers where you live

I find both these monitors fine for what i do, which is, in the main, 2D animation with Harmony, I don't do 3D POVray type rendering

An asus GTX 1070 nvidia card will set you back 400/500 GBP if not on offer https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 but again may be cheaper where you live, and there are always other options to think about

good kit is not cheap unless you get 'a deal' from a reputable source

is it just the 3D that is disapointing or is the 2D as well? - if the former maybe the rendering engine needs looking at, they are not all the same

reiterate: be very careful about spending money - if you haven't already, might be an idea to seek advice on a 3D forum such as blender...

Looking at Paul's perspective: do you mean you'd like ALL images to be cleaner and pop more, or like Paul says, your own work? If the latter, then totally disregard everything I have written.

just seen Paul's post - yes...

another monitor may make the work look better [to you], but just upping the kit willy-nilly is hit and miss - higher end graphics cards will speed the rendering; and maybe improve it in a technical way, but only if the rendering engine can take advantage of it

the art is all down to you...

Handrawn, you make a good point about how others will see it. My work is mainly text, music editing and swearing with the occasional simple graphic work. I throw my money at more screens to increase real estate and multiple Windows.

Non of my screens are IPS, nor 4K. As nice as they would be, I don't need the quality, therefore, I wouldn't see the same image(s) as you would. I would see cake, you would see gateau. Also, I'm just a peasant when it comes to arty things.

As for my 3d graphics:

"is this work just for you, or are you going to publish it on youtube [say] "

I have no business using 3d graphics.
If you could see what I do you might say I have no business using 3d graphics :)

My use of this medium is all whimsy. It's a capricious exercise, excessively so.
I do not look upon a mesh as the beginning of a work of art. I'm not looking to
create a stunning figure, face or abstract object that will be appreciated by others.
I have no artistic abilities whatsoever. And I would get no enjoyment pretending
as if i had. What I do get enjoyment from is being a principled mesh sadist.
It gives me great pleasure torturing my mesh. By using modifiers I see how I
can bend, twist, swirl, swell, skew, bulge and taper this poor defenseless mesh.
Then after catching a second wind I can use the points, edges and faces to
play with. And of course the uv with textures follows. I find this an inspiring playfest.
But it's just play. It's just entertainment. It's just fun. And it's personal only.
"It's highly unlikely a beefier machine will make you a better 3D artist."
I have a better chance of building a cyclotron than being recognized as an artist.
The question asked and answered (I hope) :)

As for the graphics of others:

I greatly appreciate the exceptional talent of others. I thought that I could appreciate
it even more when it comes to 3d graphics/fractals. Hence the motivation for getting
advice and counsel. Hey do I really come across like someone who writes there
own fractal code? Who writes there own structure synth eisenscript scripts? Hell
no (at least not yet :). But I can stand on the shoulders of those creatives who have
done the heavy lifting. I thought I can stand yet a little higher with some better graphics.
And if some graphic improvements come to my personal stuff I'll certainly take it. But
make no mistake if I was only concerned with what I do I'd never make this post.
By and by, I have 4 3d apps. All of them generate pov-ray files. Makes it very easy
to render anything in pov-ray. Besides pov-ray comes with lots and lots of examples
and there are many more examples to download.

much appreciated,
stephen

what setting is your monitor on and have you calibrated it?

calibration is important - a visual calibration such as is provided by windows 10 may help the monitor colours look better to you [at least you don't yet need to sync two or more :)]

type calibrate into the windows 10 search and click on Calibrate display colour Control panel - follow the instructions

do this under what for you are 'normal lighting conditions' - then try it at night with all other lighting off - see which works best

if you have changed any of your monitor settings I would recommend you put them all back to default first before you calibrate - you can then re-tweak them after as necessary

OK, about the software that you are using..

anim8or

Pretty old software with a low hardware requirement:

• Windows WinXP, Vista, Windiws 7, 8 or 10.
• OpenGL accelerated graphics card or integrated graphics,
• 512 MB memory, 1 GB recommended.
• 25MB disk space.

I think your existing machine is fine for this.

Art of Illusion

Again, pretty old software with a low hardware requirement:

• Operating System: Windows XP/Vista/7/8/8.1/10.
• Free Hard Disk Space: 30 MB of minimum free hard disk space required.
• Installed Memory: 512 MB of minimum RAM required.
• Processor: Intel Pentium 4 or later.

I think it's fair to say that this vintage software will also benefit little from any upgrade to your machine.

Blender

Minimum requirements:

• 64-bit dual core 2Ghz CPU with SSE2 support
• 4 GB RAM
• 1280×768 display
• Mouse, trackpad or pen+tablet
• Graphics card with 1 GB RAM, OpenGL 3.3
• Less than 10 year old

Your kit easily meets the minimum requirements and is not so far from the recommended requirements.

pov-ray

Requirements are so low, just about anything can run it.

My thoughts.

You are far from a power-user. If you favour POV-ray you may have some issues with the display settings inside the program.

I think generally from what you have said and the software that you use, that your existing system is up to producing anything you are working on. You aren't working on huge scenes with millions of polygons, you aren't trying to create toy-story 4 or Lord of the Rings.

You mention wanting to see eye popping-colours, etc. and you have not once mentioned slow rendering times or sluggish performance otherwise. Your POV-ray settings may need tweaking, possibly calibrating your monitor will help, but really just playing with the display settings may be fine.

If you have eyesight problems a larger display could help. My wife has cataracts and is awaiting an operation. We recently switched from a 43" HD TV to a 55" 4K TV and suddenly things have become a lot clearer for her simply because the display is bigger and the picture processor better at handling contrast and colour.

An SSD will make your system seem more responsive. I'm not sure if a RAM expansion will make much difference if you are using POV-RAY. A bigger monitor, or even a smaller 4K TV set might be useful.

It seems to me that your main issue is with what you see rather than with what you do to get there, so I think the eye-popping colour is down to your display, your POV-ray settings and your artistic ability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pauland

It seems to me that your main issue is with what you see rather than with what you do to get there, so I think the eye-popping colour is down to your display, your POV-ray settings and your artistic ability.

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Thoughtful analysis and advise!

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and you have not once mentioned slow rendering times or sluggish performance otherwise

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these things are subjective if you have no benchmark to compare them with. or no other expectation

Attachment 126133

it will make a difference ;)

....

but as the main query is regarding colour, the monitior and the render settings are the place to start as has already been said

I thought of cataracts too - if a medical issue exists, then I would be looking to advice from a [medical] professional in the use of computers for such purposes...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by handrawn

these things are subjective if you have no benchmark to compare them with. or no other expectation

Attachment 126133

it will make a difference ;)

....

but as the main query is regarding colour, the monitior and the render settings are the place to start as has already been said

I thought of cataracts too - if a medical issue exists, then I would be looking to advice from a [medical] professional in the use of computers for such purposes...

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I can definitely say that my wife's cataracts ( unsurprisingly ) makes her see everything as being darker than I do. She wasn't aware she had them until she had an eye test. Just over a week ago our change to a larger 4K TV brought out some unexpected enthusiasm from her because the TV picture became clearer.

Her perception of the world as being darker has increased as her cataracts have worsened. Don't get me wrong, she does everything that she could do before, but she's definitely lost some definition and brightness. Roll on her operation.

they can creep up on you, slow change is not always noticable.. I hope all goes well, it is at least a routine op in most cases - one eye at a time....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pauland

I can definitely say that my wife's cataracts ( unsurprisingly ) makes her see everything as being darker than I do. She wasn't aware she had them until she had an eye test. Just over a week ago our change to a larger 4K TV brought out some unexpected enthusiasm from her because the TV picture became clearer.

Her perception of the world as being darker has increased as her cataracts have worsened. Don't get me wrong, she does everything that she could do before, but she's definitely lost some definition and brightness. Roll on her operation.

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Had cataract surgery about 3 years ago. Minimal discomfort, worst part was putting in eye drops for a few days after. Left eye corrective lens for reading, right one for distance. Rarely wear any glasses, mostly when I drive (just to be sure). Couldn't believe how much brighter the world is and now the trees have leaves instead of green blob.

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Originally Posted by louyo

Had cataract surgery about 3 years ago. Minimal discomfort, worst part was putting in eye drops for a few days after. Left eye corrective lens for reading, right one for distance. Rarely wear any glasses, mostly when I drive (just to be sure). Couldn't believe how much brighter the world is and now the trees have leaves instead of green blob.

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Thanks for the info - I'll tell my wife.