Any interest in Xara adding "connectors" ?

Hello

I'm just clocking in here to see if there has been any interest in the Xara universe in Xara adding connectors onto shapes. I am still looking for a decent flow diagramming / BPMN tool, and it occurs to me that it's the sort of thing that could be quiet easily bolted onto the core Xara engine, and for those of use who know our way around Xara it would be really powerful to be able to create really good looking flow diagrams.

They's need to sort out how lines with arrow heads terminate though!


J

As someone who would like to see an alternative to Visio, yes, absolutely I would be interested in this.

-- Ben

it occurs to me that it's the sort of thing that could be quiet easily bolted onto the core Xara engine

That's often the view of management about tasks they can't do but would like done!

It would be a great thing to do, but not necessarily simple.

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Originally Posted by shiphen

Hello
I'm just clocking in here to see if there has been any interest in the Xara universe in Xara adding connectors onto shapes. I am still looking for a decent flow diagramming / BPMN tool, and it occurs to me that it's the sort of thing that could be quiet easily bolted onto the core Xara engine, and for those of use who know our way around Xara it would be really powerful to be able to create really good looking flow diagrams.
They's need to sort out how lines with arrow heads terminate though!
J

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This has been asked for on several occasions, but no hint of anything coming through,
Acorn

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Originally Posted by pauland

it occurs to me that it's the sort of thing that could be quiet easily bolted onto the core Xara engine

That's often the view of management about tasks they can't do but would like done!

It would be a great thing to do, but not necessarily simple.

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True... But that sort of response is quite often the view of techies who would rather play with some new technical toys and/or technical theories, AND/OR other managers that are determined to justify some recent developments, but who haven't talked to a wide variety of users lately. :)

I used to write CAD software for the design of electronic chips ( the things that sit on circuit boards ).

I used to write software that did things like analysing the connections between transistors within the chip. Fun stuff.

Engineers used to come to me saying they had problem X and could I solve this problem using software or alert them when some particular problem might occur. It was an easy problem for them to describe so they assumed that software could be easily written to help them.

Most of the time we could help. Other times we had to explain that the simple problem they described would be fiendishly difficult for software to diagnose.

The other side of the coin is that I would go and see them and they would be scratching their head because of some issue. They tell me about it and I'd ask why they hadn't come to me earlier because I could easily solve their problem. They hadn't come to me because they thought the problem was so difficult that I couldn't possibly help.

As a programmer I love solving problems. Most of us do. I would love to write the connector software for connected diagrams like Visio. The concept may be easy but in practice it's a bit more complicated.

I'm sure Xara's tech developers would love to write that software, but it's more about management balancing priorities ( available manpower, money and user demands ) to make the software profitable.

Connected diagrams are a niche use, so I can understand why Xara might not see that as a priority over other features.

Don't ever say we never gave you anything.

Duplicate and use as necessary.

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

Don't ever say we never gave you anything.

Duplicate and use as necessary.

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Thanks however now I'm confused.

A) Various errors came up when I opened with my Xara Designer Pro X10
> This file was produced by a different or newer version of the program. It contains some data that will be ignored.
> Technical details; (4531); (4536); (4525); (4537); (4535); (4522); (4527); (4522); (4527); (4522); (4527); (4522); (4527)

B) So I downloaded and installed a trial of XDP 11X
But now when I go in, I see a window snapshot of something called Design elements (whatever that is)... on an Apple interface (strange, I didnt think Xara worked on Apple)... Ok but yes there are some useful flow diagram shapes in magenta. I guess that's it yes?

OK but what there isn't is any way of doing connectors. i.e. as soon as you move a shape relative to another shape the connecting line (AKA "edge") will need to be moved too, yes?

The error just says the document was created in a newer version but will open OK on 10.

I created the forms using the screen shot which I included for reference but the screen shot can be deleted and has nothing to do with Xara.

I would enable snap to grid and place the shapes where needed, then use the straight line tool to connect the shapes.

I attached another document with just the shapes, filled in and no screen shot.

It will open fine in older versions. Just ignore the warning.

@Gary P, the OP and I want dynamic connectors as per Gliffy (https://www.gliffy.com/home/) or MS Visio or any number of web applications.

Acorn

I know that. But I don't think it is going to happen. It is not the focus of the product.

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

I know that. But I don't think it is going to happen. It is not the focus of the product.

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I can see many site designs that could benefit form such a capability.

Web sites do not need to be all flash and fancy.

In my corporate work, I deliver business process and using a web site is far more friendly than most presentation formats.
I have created full Quality Management Systems using a hybrid of SharePoint and Xara embedded web pages with tooltips, pop-ups and navigation using little boxes with navigation flows.
My work would have been far easier to add new flows with dynamic connectors.

I now use Gliffy and Confluence Atlassian tools in much the same way; Xara is well behind.

Acorn

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

I know that. But I don't think it is going to happen. It is not the focus of the product.

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From a marketing perspective there do seem to be various variations of Xara with different focuses.

From a technical perspective maybe it's time for a fork?

It is almost a Dear Xara... moment.

A Smart Connector could simply be a curve that when its ends touch two shapes, the end is borrowed by the touching shape so any moves remain sticky.

Looking forward to the Smart Shape API.

Acorn

"proper" smart connectors will have connections that can support curved or angular changes of direction and re-route themselves to avoid other smart shapes. Then you'd like to annotate those connections and maybe decide which way they will run by adjusting them.

You also need to join the connections themselves so two connections from different shapes can join before running into a connection on another shape.

It's no good having a smart connection that makes a dogs dinner and is uncontrollable. Simple doesn't cut it in the world of smart connectors.

I don't want to bang the drum too often but Inkscape has this functionality for years. If needed you can draw the diagram in Inkscape and save it to SVG to import (without a hitch) into Xara.

I still prefer Xara for its fast and functional interface (light gray that is, not the murky depressing dark side ...) but Inkscape is trailing and getting closer ...

Not a top priority, but I would also welcome having elastic connectors. The open source LibreOffice Draw has a useful diagramming tool which can also export out to PDF (or SVG) which then import nicely as vectors into PGD.

Attachment 112471

Considering this is a nice feature to have, but rather a niche usage and that there are workarounds, I suspect many users would rather see Xara do some things for which there are no reliable workarounds - proper CMYK support for example.

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Originally Posted by pauland

"proper" smart connectors will have connections that can support curved or angular changes of direction and re-route themselves to avoid other smart shapes. Then you'd like to annotate those connections and maybe decide which way they will run by adjusting them.

You also need to join the connections themselves so two connections from different shapes can join before running into a connection on another shape.

It's no good having a smart connection that makes a dogs dinner and is uncontrollable. Simple doesn't cut it in the world of smart connectors.

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Yes, all sounds sensible. And considering all the other amazingly complex things that Xara has done over the years, relatively trivial.

To state the obvious, the great joy of course would be that given Xara's power and adaptability one could generate extremely good looking diagrams unlike most of the existing diagramming (e.g. flow diagramming) tools out there.

Attachment 112478

All I want is a Smart Shape Line.
The current in-built Xara lines don't cut it as they only have a Head and a Tail.
Also their control points are not at the tip of the line; the current Smart Shape Lines do both of these.

I want to be able to Pin to another shape and to Pin to a canvas / page background.
The pinned (red) end points would move with the shape and the canvas pins (purple) would remain until unpinned.

Smart routeing would be a desirable but not essential.

Acorn

I quite like Acorn's idea, these connectors or connectible lines could have an artistic value as well if you could apply a brush to them. Especially if as someone mentioned they could connect to each other as well.

I'm thinking for example a tree branch where you could edit the main branch and all the sub branches connected to it would move with it. Perhaps by having nodes at each end that would connect to other nodes whether on a shape or lines or even other connector lines like Acorn's idea but it would give you the ability to place a node where ever you want the connector line to join. But the connector would still need to be an editable bezier curve. Add in the ability to convert a regular line to a connector line might also be a useful feature.

If the moveable lines could be animated as well as flow charts and adjustable illustrations you could also create a rigged character. I know Xara's animation features have been largely ignored but now you might have a feature that would interest a wider group of users and be something that Xara might actually look into.

Yes please, even basic connectors would be extremely useful (and would seem quite simple to implement, given that Xara can already create segmented lines, has object handles etc). Even Microsoft Word has workable connectors (lines and arrows which snap to end-point positions, then stay connected as you move an object) in its drawing tools!!

I don't accept the comment that 'It is not the focus of the product' - Xara is used in such a variety of ways for so many different purposes, that its basic drawing tools should be capable of the same things that low end products can already do. It seems to me that the developers have overlooked this one.

Attachment 118486

I would also find this feature useful. I have used Microsoft word and PowerPoint, libre office presentation, photoshop and illustrator, and my professional tool for this is MagicDraw, depending on who I'm working for, whether I use their tools or mine, and what I'm doing.

Despite the troubling threads about xara being a stagnating program that I am now reading, I am enjoying using it, being somewhat new to the program. Using it requires a shift in thinking, but as I am making that shift, I find xara incredibly powerful and also enjoyable to use. I am shifting more and more work to it. Though given several of these thread, I'm not sure how wise that is. For now, I'm trusting that it will regain momentum.

Someone in a thread indicated that 10 years it was far ahead of the field. I can appreciate that statement now.

Anyway, I think these connector tools would be a welcome, useful, and appropriate addition to the toolset.

With regard to using Xara programmes to create flow-chart diagrams I think the following two modifications would, in the absence of elastic connectors, also be useful improvements.

1.Make line end arrows snap to their arrowhead points rather than to the end of the line (see graphic example attached)*
2.Make it possible to snap to the handles of text panels (Smartshapes) not just the lines and corners (also see example).

* As mentioned by many others over numerous years. Smart Arrows were/are almost the answer as it is possible to snap the tip of the arrowhead, but unfortunately you can not specify a numerical value, for example for the width of the arrowhead. The arrowhead width is linked (in some way?) to the line width, making it tricky to adjust one without the other. Additionally the size attributes of Smartshapes can not be copy and pasted (as far as I know) to help keep consistency.

To illustrate this conundrum try changing the lower Smartshape in the attached xar file so the lower arrowhead is the same as the top one, but still keep the 8pt line width. To be fair this is not a priority to me personally, but if anyone does have a quick way around this, it would be interesting to know. It's small things like this that get me a bit frustrated. Thanks.

Attachment 118496

Attachment 118498

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Originally Posted by Jonopen

With regard to using Xara programmes to create flow-chart diagrams I think the following two modifications would, in the absence of elastic connectors, also be useful improvements.

1.Make line end arrows snap to their arrowhead points rather than to the end of the line (see graphic example attached)*
2.Make it possible to snap to the handles of text panels (Smartshapes) not just the lines and corners (also see example).

* As mentioned by many others over numerous years. Smart Arrows were/are almost the answer as it is possible to snap the tip of the arrowhead, but unfortunately you can not specify a numerical value, for example for the width of the arrowhead. The arrowhead width is linked (in some way?) to the line width, making it tricky to adjust one without the other. Additionally the size attributes of Smartshapes can not be copy and pasted (as far as I know) to help keep consistency.

To illustrate this conundrum try changing the lower Smartshape in the attached xar file so the lower arrowhead is the same as the top one, but still keep the 8pt line width. To be fair this is not a priority to me personally, but if anyone does have a quick way around this, it would be interesting to know. It's small things like this that get me a bit frustrated. Thanks.

Attachment 118496

Attachment 118498

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Jono, for your conundrum.

The top line has a Line Width of 8px and an Arrow size of 33.5px.
Select the bottom line using the QuickShape Tool.
There is a topmost blue control point, which, when you hover over it, indicates it is the Arrow size control.
Adjust the height to 33.5px using eye and toggling (Alt+S) to see the Arrow size is on 33.5px.
I also used a box of height 33.5px to get there.
Next, move down to the Line width control and adjust to 8px, releasing and checking in the Set line width box.
You can set the width to the 8px directly but this affects the Arrow size so I use another box, 8px high.

Xara should add a meta key (Shift) to lock the Line width when adjusting the Arrow head and the converse on the Line width to lock the Arrow size.

Acorn

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Originally Posted by Acorn

Jono, for your conundrum.

The top line has a Line Width of 8px and an Arrow size of 33.5px.
Select the bottom line using the QuickShape Tool.
There is a topmost blue control point, which, when you hover over it, indicates it is the Arrow size control.
Adjust the height to 33.5px using eye and toggling (Alt+S) to see the Arrow size is on 33.5px.
I also used a box of height 33.5px to get there.
Next, move down to the Line width control and adjust to 8px, releasing and checking in the Set line width box.
You can set the width to the 8px directly but this affects the Arrow size so I use another box, 8px high.

Xara should add a meta key (Shift) to lock the Line width when adjusting the Arrow head and the converse on the Line width to lock the Arrow size.

Acorn

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Thanks Acorn. Your shift lock idea would certainly be helpful. Maybe when Xara release the SmartShape API you could modify this ;)

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Originally Posted by Jonopen

Thanks Acorn. Your shift lock idea would certainly be helpful. Maybe when Xara release the SmartShape API you could modify this ;)

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Indeed, I can't remember how long back the API was suggested but it is probably going to be a long wait. I think Xara needs to look back at its unique selling point and deliver production that fits my desire of 'pixel perfect placement'.

Acorn

As a person that spends quite a lot of time in CAD and doing Gantt Charts, I'd love to see Xara get into something like! Hard to develop and to market so don't hold your breath.

Steve...

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Originally Posted by ad1066

As someone who would like to see an alternative to Visio, yes, absolutely I would be interested in this.

-- Ben

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