Xara Designer Pro X9 - Workflow for Accurate Prints?

I primarily do web work, but occasionally I do print work - not often enough for Adobe's CC to be cost effective.

I have several ideas for using primarily DPX in a workflow for accurate color in prints from CMYK presses.

Workflow 1)

1. Get a swatch book from the printers of what their press prints given certain CMYK values from the CMYK color space (such as from a CMYK PDF/X)
   
   • This takes into account any processing of the color on their end if they were given a CMYK PDF
2. Create a graphic in DPX, using the color swatches as reference for the CMYK values to use (using only the CMYK color model for colors)
   
   • sRGB Photographs shouldn't be an issue since they usually fit within the CMYK Gamut , accurately converted using Relative Colorimeter
3. Export the graphic in CMYK color as a PDF/X
4. Send the PDF to the printer

Workflow 2)

1. Get the printer's ICC profile
2. Make the graphic in DPX or PGD using sRGB or CMYK
3. Convert it to CMYK (if needed) and soft-proof it with the ICC in a secondary program (I have yet to identify what this program would be)
4. Export the graphic in CMYK color as a PDF/X
5. Send the PDF to the printer

The first workflow would support Pantone colors, depending on DPX's pantone support. A swatch book would probably be a good idea for the second workflow as well. If unavailable, one could simply make a swatch book to have the printer print out to know what CMYK values in DPX would translate to what colors on the press.

Although I have been reading a lot on the subject, I am new to print and color management. I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. :)
Thank you!

Hi Austin,

Either work-flow is fine. If a given print establishment has pdf profiles, I either use theirs or alter the settings already available in whatever application I am using. Both work-flows support Pantone colors.

As regards proofing, I always proof in Acrobat. Have since their has been an Acrobat that supported such a thing--a whole lot of years. I look at densities and look at the actual color values. I almost always use swatch books, never had one printed off by a printer. All decent offset establishments will also have calibrated equipment and their actual values shouldn't deviate from what I design on-screen in Xara nor in read in the PDF by more than a percent or so for the CMYK values. Do always get a blue-line for large runs, and check the press run as well for anything important.

Take care, Mike

Sounds like it would work pretty well.

I have used Designer Pro and before that Xara X+ for creating 4 color print work. I export to PDF/X using the latest version of the PDF/X filter. And things generally print fine.

Also changing to Window > Show Printer Colors > Simulate Printer Colors gives a slightly better idea how certain colors will print. At first the colors seem muted and dull but this is due to the more limited range of colors that can be printed in CMYK. For a good overview on color read Looking Good in Color :)

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Originally Posted by mwenz

Hi Austin,

Either work-flow is fine. If a given print establishment has pdf profiles, I either use theirs or alter the settings already available in whatever application I am using. Both work-flows support Pantone colors.

As regards proofing, I always proof in Acrobat. Have since their has been an Acrobat that supported such a thing--a whole lot of years. I look at densities and look at the actual color values. I almost always use swatch books, never had one printed off by a printer. All decent offset establishments will also have calibrated equipment and their actual values shouldn't deviate from what I design on-screen in Xara nor in read in the PDF by more than a percent or so for the CMYK values. Do always get a blue-line for large runs, and check the press run as well for anything important.

Take care, Mike

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I didn't know that Acrobat could apply ICC profiles for soft proofing. I'll definitely look into it. Proofing densities is a great thing to do that I hadn't even thought of. Does Acrobat let you tweak the CMYK curves for tweaking color densities without manually changing colors?

Process Color swatches are a good idea. I'll have to check if the printer is calibrated. Either way, a set like this would be nice to have on hand.


Thank you for your input. :)

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

Sounds like it would work pretty well.

I have used Designer Pro and before that Xara X+ for creating 4 color print work. I export to PDF/X using the latest version of the PDF/X filter. And things generally print fine.

Also changing to Window > Show Printer Colors > Simulate Printer Colors gives a slightly better idea how certain colors will print. At first the colors seem muted and dull but this is due to the more limited range of colors that can be printed in CMYK. For a good overview on color read Looking Good in Color :)

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I've already been to that link. XD I haven't looked at the book, though. What topics does the book discuss? As a traditional artist, I have studied color theory (especially regarding the CMY color wheel unlike most artists) and color schemes. I have also studied the eyes perception of color. I am also familiar with the psychology of colors, but not much beyond color theory related to color schemes. I have a moderate understanding of color spaces: what they are, how they are managed (technically, not necessarily practically), and how they are converted (such as rendering intents). Now, color density as mwenz mentioned was somewhat new to me, so I had to look it up (I didn't know it was the artist's issue to deal with rather than the printer's issue). It's hard for me to know what I haven't learned, but I probably know the basics.

I ran a little test. I made two squares of the same color, one with CMYK and one with RGB. When exporting to CMYK, both values were altered. It appears as though ALL values (regardless of color model) are directly mapped when exporting to a color space, preserving values while altering actual colors, which makes sense since the colors are clearly different. Anyway, the resulting CMYK export looked extremely close to the print colors simulation. That's pretty cool. :)

Mike in the UK we don't use "Blueline", at all in my experience, all done using digital proofs in full colour. As far as I know from my industrial experience back in the 60's as an engineer making jigs and pattern's we had to sign off drawings which were bluelines with red pens and draughtsman used yellow was the same method used in print? Totally agree with Mike about using Acro Pro for proofing one of the few programmes that pays for itself made by Adobe. A small point here is about using only PDF/X 1-a is that the output must be flattened before exporting while PDF/X 3 doesn't or is that just my reading of the output intent.

PDFX-3 is a format that even Adobe recommends against using. Unfortunately, POD places still insist on using it. If there is transparency on a page, chances are there are color conversions of the managed RGB elements and changes to some CMYK elements. It also flattens transparency. PDFX-3 will also always be output as CMYK. In my view, it is also a poor format for using.

PDFX-4 is what ought to be used as flattening happens at the rip, color profiles are passed through to the RIP properly. Unfortunately, Xara does not support PDFX-4.

Which for professional print work leaves us with using PDFX-1a (or PDF 1.7 and using Native in the color drop down if you wish to maintain RGB data) in Xara. Which overall is just fine regardless of flattening but there can be oddities that show up, usually in ID for some reason, but sometimes in other applications. Acrobat will show the issue 99% of the time so it should be able to get caught. Even so, offset printing will usually not pass through the oddities, digital presses usually will unless one is using PDFX-4.

PDFX-1a really shouldn't be changing cmyk values. At least by more than a percent or so under certain circumstances. There will always be rounding at the PDF in case the CMYK in Xara is not entered as whole numbers. This happens/can happen in every application. It means little to nothing at the press.

I'll try to attach a portion of a PDF color swatch I have made. It should be self explanatory. If you check it in Acrobat, you'll see that there is zero shift--at least if I have properly changed the Yellow values in every square thus far. The swatch "book" isn't finished yet, but is intended for people here to use for their local printer to output. One day I'll finish it.

Also, all color will hit the PDF as DeviceX...DeviceCMYK, DeviceRGB, DeviceGray. ICC profiles are not passed through. This also is not an issue in the scheme of things. The screen shot is an output from XDP using CMYK and RGB using the PDF 1.7 (Reader 8) profile and selecting Native in the drop down.

Color Swatch Books.
http://www.tintbooks.com/

I had more to write...but have gotten called away 3 times and need to run an errand.

Mike

A further thought.

Xara products are not color managed. Therefore any ICC profiles are tossed out. The color values of the resultant color managed images are close, but not exact. Unless the work is an art print where color has to be very exact, XDP's output is fine at the few percentages in the CMYK values it will be off. If I were doing art prints, I would place Xara's art and the color managed images into something else.

Mike

I think you are over-thinking this. I have one rule for color printing, Is it convincing?

Years ago when I was a very new art director working on the Datsun (now Nissan) national advertising account, I did my first color ad with a photo of two Datsun automobiles. We spent weeks working with the photo engraver preparing the color separations for the full page ads that were running in Life and Time magazines. Finally the color proofs we saw were as close to the 8 x 10 transparencies are they were ever going to get.

I have to wait about two months before the ad appeared. I looked at the ad in Time Magazine in horror. The white car was all pink. I showed the ad to my wife who looked at it, shrugged her shoulders, and said, what's the problem, it looks fine to me.

In other words, it was convincing.

Unless you are printing catalogs and ads in which customers are making a critical selection based on color accuracy, just make sure the printing is clean and you'll be OK.

Gary, I don't know who you are directing your comments to, but I suspect it is me.

Some people actually like color accuracy. An application used for print really ought to be reasonably accurate. Having color management would be ideal, not an absolute necessity. One can get images close and works for 99% of all my print work. But it is far enough off from XDP in certain color ranges that I would not call it "accurate." But they are, to me, acceptable shifts.

As far as your ad, I would have rejected it. And the mags would have to have had reduced pricing in future ads. If they provide a proof I signed off on, their print should match their print. That is their responsibility. The shift you describe would not have been acceptable in anyone's book. I don't care how well the shift looked in print.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mwenz

A further thought.

Xara products are not color managed. Therefore any ICC profiles are tossed out. The color values of the resultant color managed images are close, but not exact. Unless the work is an art print where color has to be very exact, XDP's output is fine at the few percentages in the CMYK values it will be off. If I were doing art prints, I would place Xara's art and the color managed images into something else.

Mike

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In the case of an image containing an embedded ICC, couldn't a program like Acrobat use the ICC to convert the color values such that the resulting file would not need an embedded ICC profile in a given color space? If I understand it correctly, programs like Photoshop have to do that transparently anyway in the work space (otherwise process color formulas wouldn't work).

That brings up some questions I have about Xara's color handling. When a CMYK color model is used in DPX and the image exported in CMYK, I am assuming that the color values are preserved rather than the color (50% C in the Colo Editor is exported as 50% C in the CMYK image). If a color is specified in the RGB color model, its values appear to be preserved as well (rather than converted to the CMYK color space to preserve the represented color). This makes sense as it is completely blind to color space, but it seems to make the color models of little value (unless you need to specify exact K values since pure RGB neglects K). Is this correct? I was exporting a TIFF in PGD9; is it different if I were to export a PDF/X (I'm guessing not)?

Lastly, do any of you have suggestion on how to handle colors within the CMYK gamut that are outside a specific printer's gamut? Would professional printers know (or have a good idea) of what process colors are not producible on their presses? As I understand it, this is where the printer's ICC profile would be used for proofing in Acrobat.

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

I think you are over-thinking this. I have one rule for color printing, Is it convincing?

Years ago when I was a very new art director working on the Datsun (now Nissan) national advertising account, I did my first color ad with a photo of two Datsun automobiles. We spent weeks working with the photo engraver preparing the color separations for the full page ads that were running in Life and Time magazines. Finally the color proofs we saw were as close to the 8 x 10 transparencies are they were ever going to get.

I have to wait about two months before the ad appeared. I looked at the ad in Time Magazine in horror. The white car was all pink. I showed the ad to my wife who looked at it, shrugged her shoulders, and said, what's the problem, it looks fine to me.

In other words, it was convincing.

Unless you are printing catalogs and ads in which customers are making a critical selection based on color accuracy, just make sure the printing is clean and you'll be OK.

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That might work for you, but I am a tedious artist and designer (traditional and digital). I choose my colors carefully. While minor shifts are to be expected, I desire colors as accurate as possible (especially if I decided to get into art prints in the future). It is important enough to me that I would work exclusively within the intersection of the color spaces throughout my work flow (printer, CMYK, sRGB) if needed (using trial and error or a tool like Gamutvision).

Xara doesn't use an ICC profile as far as I can tell. ICC profiles are valuable for a color managed work-flow as regards to soft-proofing on your monitor in order to match output intents. But they do not change color values. They are also used for hard-proofing a printer that is capable of having a profile made specifically to match the output intent...but how many here have a printer capable of using that profile? Even if one does have a printer capable of profiling, you need a profile for each and every output intent.

Output intents, as used in the PDF creation and inside Acrobat, are what need to be matched. But internally, Acrobat only uses monitor ICC profiles and again, only if you can have an ICC profile made for your monitor. This color management is way outside the purview of the thread and really doesn't apply to XDP as it is not a color managed application.

For images that are going to press, I use PhotoLine and tweak curves, etc., in order to get specific CMYK proofing. Those are placed in XDP and remain relatively accurate through a PDF work-flow. I'll whip up some examples later. Currently, while monitoring the threads I am currently involved in (here and elsewhere), I am helping my son work on his car's motor.

Mike

From the acknowledgments in PGD9:

Some import and export filters (including PDF) utilize color profiles from Adobe Systems Inc. The license agreement can be found in the Filters\pdfxfilter\icc folder of your Photo & Graphic Designerinstallation.

The license agreement just says that the profiles may only be distributed when embedded within files.

Xara doesn't manage color; it is in the sRGB color space by default as a result. Xara has to use those Adobe profiles for importing and exporting CMYK content. The imported or exported CMYK file must have an embedded ICC profile or it wouldn't be CMYK. If Xara truly does not support color management at all, it must use the ICC profile to transform the file to the sRGB color space (without the need of an embedded profile any longer). A CMYK-specific import feature wouldn't even exist otherwise.

If I had a camera that I profiled, Xara would not be able to load the profile. But, I may be able to embed that profile into an image using an external application (know of any applications?). However, would Xara's input filters transform the color correctly if the profile was for the sRGB color space rather than CMYK? If it did have an embedded CMYK profile, would Xara transform the image based upon the image's embedded profile or based upon a packaged CMYK ICC profile from Adobe after determining that the image had a CMYK profile?
If Xara transforms (not interprets) the colors of imports using embedded profiles, Xara should be quite friendly to color managed work flows. (I don't have the tools to test this, or I would have.)

If it doesn't work that way, such functionality should be relatively easy to implement as an extended input filter using Windows Color Management API (not requiring any modification to the core Xara engine as implementing a full color management system into Xara may require).

For export, Xara seems to embedded a profile only for CMYK files, maybe using an Adobe profile for SWOP rather than Windows RSWOP.icm. Moreover, Xara applies no transformation to the exported file, preserving all color values.

Then, a program (such as Acrobat) would use a printer's ICC profile as an output intent to soft-proof the CMYK image for a specific printer (alternatively a standard CMYK profile could be used). The printer's ICC profile technically wouldn't be needed if it was calibrated AND supported the full CMYK color space. And, yes, it would also need the monitor's ICC profile to be accurate.
At this point a program (such as PhotoLine) may be needed to adjust CMYK curves for values not set by the user in Xara to tweak ink densities. The values I'm talking about could be from photographs or from raster graphics generated by Xara effects (such as transparency).

I feel like I'm beating this topic to death, so I hope you're bearing in there with me. :) I've read a lot of complaints from Adobe users about Xara's lack of color management. Especially from what I've heard from most of you here, I think Xara could have a place in a very cost-effective workflow that would be just as good for accurate print colors as Adobe's workflow (except be more user-friendly).

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Originally Posted by mwenz

... They are also used for hard-proofing a printer that is capable of having a profile made specifically to match the output intent...but how many here have a printer capable of using that profile? Even if one does have a printer capable of profiling, you need a profile for each and every output intent. ...
I am helping my son work on his car's motor.
Mike

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I have priced tools for creating a profile for a printer and calibrating it, and they cost several thousand USD. For a desktop printer, profiles may be applied through Windows Color Management (or Mac's equivalent). In such a case, you'd have to make sure that the printer's driver is not also attempting to assign a profile. I have an HP officejet printer, and even it installed a default profile for itself. Windows lets you assign multiple profiles as you do need one for each paper type you plan to use and such. That proofing still requires that the printer be calibrated (instead of your monitor). I could see it being necessary if working in a color space larger than the monitor supports.

Hope your son has a good time with his car. :)

I tend to agree with Gary here, are we not getting too involved with the technical issues here? printing doesn't have to be that involved to look good. The stuff that I did up to recently, at least 5 different newsletters per week with a mix of content, once a month a large run on 1 brochure and maybe a poster from the brochure, were all dependant on having a good relationship with the print house. If there was a problem with any of the files I got a quick or made a quick call to and from the print house. The only thing that got past was twice we had some smears on a run which were small scratches on one of the films and that was over a period of five years. Not all of the files were done in Xara as AI and ID were used but all of the newsletter done using Pro which was most of my work. With the mix of content in the newsletters there was a slight loss in gamut when printed but that was expected as the bitmap was never taken into PS and just relied on the RIP to produce an acceptable halftone pattern. What I am really saying here is that having a printer that you can rely on is more important than how good my design's are so long as I have followed a few simple rules when producing the file, like total ink percentages, transparencies/bitmap effects should be flattened, correct use of blacks, text should be placed at the top of the stack/top layer....... there are a few more.

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Originally Posted by Albacore

What I am really saying here is that having a printer that you can rely on is more important than how good my design's are so long as I have followed a few simple rules when producing the file

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i agree with you
i am a mere novice in matters of pro print
i cant and dont want to get my head around most of it
so i have always had to rely on the print houses professionalsim and honesty
if you have a serious and helpful account mananger
and a relationship where evertybody accepts they may have made a mistake (incredible how such a little thing can ruin an entire contract)

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Originally Posted by =Austin=

I think Xara could have a place in a very cost-effective workflow that would be just as good for accurate print colors as Adobe's workflow (except be more user-friendly).

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you have hit the nail on the head, i think
:thx

Austin - I am not exactly an amateur. I just have a more realistic approach to printing. I have had my work published in about 10 books, plus my stereogram partner and I have contributed to a Japanese stereogram magazine that has over 30 issues. The color is going to turn out how it is going to turn out. And with very rare exceptions, it is fine.

Whenever you print a multi-page document, your image will be influenced by whatever else is on the sheet before it is trimmed out and bound. In the case of my white car taking on a pink tinge, I was able to isolate the other ad on the signature and it had a lot of red in the image.

If you are a perfectionist and want to make your color as accurate as is humanly possible, more power to you. I tend to spend more time concentrating on the creative end of the project. :)