Problem with PDF export (images are negative?)

Hello,

This is something I noticed a few days ago. I imported a PDF to recreate it in Xara and further edit it. There were some images, that Xara was displaying correctly, ie. as seen in PDF. But when I exported my creation back to PDF I noticed, that the imported images are in (somewhat) negative colors! Then I thought that the original PDF color space was the problem - it must have been CMYK. Then I noticed something else - when I "touched" the imported image (like, changed the contrast by just 1 unit, so it shouldn't be noticeable) the image exported correctly.

It can be reproduced in a few easy steps:

1. Take an image and paste it to new Xara document.
2. Export the document to PDF using CMYK color space.
3. Import the PDF back to Xara as new document.
4. Re-export the imported PDF to PDF (using any color space, the effect is the same).


Does this qualify as a bug? Or is it a feature that I simply don't quite follow. Can this be avoided somehow? Like knowing that certain images were imported from a different color space (whatever) and being able to change it somehow (besides doing a dummy contrast increase, as in my case).

I've attached three files for you - one is original .xar file, then there's a PDF exported from this .xar (horse1.pdf), and then the PDF (horse2.pdf) that was exported from horse1.pdf (after it's been imported to Xara).

(Xara Designer Pro X 8.1.3.23942)

Attachment 92715
Attachment 92716
Attachment 92717

I cannot reproduce this. I exported the horse as PDF/X for commercial printing.

Dragged and dropped the PDF onto a new page. Selected Optimize for Editing.

Exported as PDF/X for commercial printing.

Dragged and dropped the PDF onto a new page, and I still have a black horse.

Sometimes weird things happen that are one-offs and don't happen then next time you open Designer. Can you reproduce after you have closed Designer and then reopened it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

I cannot reproduce this. I exported the horse as PDF/X for commercial printing.

Dragged and dropped the PDF onto a new page. Selected Optimize for Editing.

Exported as PDF/X for commercial printing.

Dragged and dropped the PDF onto a new page, and I still have a black horse.

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I can reproduce it every single time.

As I noted, it happened only when I imported a CMYK PDF (is it a good term, by the way?) and exported back to PDF. In my example, when I export the .xar to RGB PDF, then the second export (of the PDF imported back to Xara) is okay.

XAR -> (CMYK)PDF -> import pdf -> (any)PDF - this fails
XAR -> (RGB)PDF -> import pdf -> (any)PDF - this is okay

What I originally did, before creating this thread and this 'horse' example, was that I imported a CMYK PDF (which was not produced by Xara) and exported it to (Native) PDF and saw the embedded images in inverted colors (well, not exactly inverted, but all wrong anyway).


EDIT:
I just tried it with Xara Xtreme 4.0.1.5601 (which runs on a different machine): I imported the horse1.pdf (from my first post), which is in CMYK color space, and exported it back to PDF - the result is the same (negative colors).

I do not know if it matters, but my both computers are running Windows 7 Professional 64-bit.

Hello Morris

I have asked someone at Xara to take a look at this post and respond. It will take a few days as they are very busy.

This has come up before, as I remember, though I do not know if there is a solution.

If anybody has a suggestion, please post it.

The version of this issue that I experience is photos in a pdf importing as negatives. I don't think I've had one import correctly and export as a negative.

Most photos in pdfs import correctly. The content for the pdfs in which I see the negative import was created in InDesign, although I don't know whether InDesign was on Mac or PC or both.

Hi Morris, I've partly reproduced the problem you have encountered, but only by importing your horse1.pdf and exporting that does the resulting export show the problems with the image that you mention. I cannot yet reproduce it exactly as this is detailed by exporting the horse.xar first, importing that PDF then exporting it again - though I have found another, similar problem in doing that.

the 2 issues I have found and reproduced have been logged for the development team to investigate.

Could you try this for me and tell me whether you still encounter the same problem following this method, as this works for me:
- Open horse.xar
- Select File > Export > PDF and choose PDF/X Commercial Printing and click Export, without changing any advanced settings.
- Import that exported PDF file.
- Go to File > Export > PDF and leave the settings as they are and click Export.

Does that second export also display this same problem as you were seeing originally?

Thanks,

Will try your suggestion on sunday and let you know of the result.

Hi PeteS,

I did what you suggested and after the second export the image was ok (even when I explicitly exported as RGB the second time).

It does not, however, solve my problem, because it all started from importing a PDF, re-editing it and exporting back to PDF. I have no control over what parameters were used to create that first PDF, as that was not mine. As I see it now under a hexeditor, it has been, indeed, created in Adobe InDesign, and it is full of "/ColorSpace /DeviceCMYK" postscript (or whatever) commands. If you want to have a look at it, here it is: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/106623143/Do...nlay_Hires.PDF.

Hello Morris,

I don't know if you have moved on with this project nor if this is use to you now. I have attached a Xara file of the PDF you linked to that should be fine to modify and output.

Take care, Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mwenz

Hello Morris,

I don't know if you have moved on with this project nor if this is use to you now. I have attached a Xara file of the PDF you linked to that should be fine to modify and output.

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As a matter of fact, I already finished my, so to speak, project, but thanks for trying to help.

As I wrote in the OP, I simply added a dummy (1 unit) contrast increase to the images and this helped (they were exported okay). I can see that you did photo optimization after importing, right? Because my images are JPEG (as I can see on the status bar when I click them) and yours are PNG.

So, it's a kind of a workaround rather than fix. I'm not saying this is a showstopper, because once you are aware of it you can easily fix it (and truly, how many times you, professionals, re-edit others' PDFs?), but since the onscreen image is all okay, it should export okay, and it does not. So there's a bug somewhere.

Thanks,
Pawel

Hello Pawel,

No optimization. I loaded the PDF into AI and exported out of AI as a PDF. It was that PDF made by AI I imported to XDP. I hadn't noticed the PNG image type. I simply opened the PDF in XDP as produced from AI and exported out to make sure it was OK.

Those CMYK JPGs in the original PDF are kind of funky. Xara doesn't have issues with the CMYK JPGs I have needed to use in the past, though I also usually convert them to CMYK TIFFs before using them in anything.

If you have Adobe Reader installed, you can use the File | Properties menu command to see what has produced a PDF. Usually the PDFs I have the most issues with are ones from InDesign. Sometimes troublesome PDFs open best in AI, sometimes XDP and sometimes in PagePlus. Never all of them in a single application.

And some, well, with some nothing I have will open one for editing properly. In the larger scheme of things, Adobe never, ever, meant for a PDF to be opened for editing. They were always designed for a final "thing" before print (and or archiving). These types of issues, though, make applications such as XDP to get better at doing something Adobe never meant to happen.

As for how often I edit PDFs? You might be surprised. I am working on a catalog for a New Jersey company right now that they had deleted all their original files. All that were left were a series of PDFs for the different chapters of the publication. And sometimes like with original art, a PDF is a great means of exchange if one doesn't own the originating application.

Take care, Mike

I have from time to time come a across a pdf file provided to me that will import into Xara with the images as negatives, one way I was able to fix it was to select the negative photo and use the negative filter which is located under colour filters in the live effect list. I assumed the problem was with the provided Pdfs my clients provided. In at least one case the negative filter did not provide a usable image and I had to go back to the client and get them to send a hi res jpeg image instead of the pdf.

OK, OK, but we're straying from the original problem. It's not that I imported a PDF and the images turned negative, it's that Xara PRODUCED a negative-image PDF out of non-negative source. Of course importing images as negative is also a problem (that can be solved in numerous ways - a negative filter, as you mentioned, or by using The GIMP, which seems to correctly import PDFs, or using a PDF image extractor that will simply extract the image as-is), but you are presented with it as soon as the import process finishes. My case was somehow different - the image imported "normal" (non-negative) - at least Xara was displaying it correctly - but a PDF produced out of this image was wrong. I know it's a bad idea not to check the final result, but if I hadn't opened the produced PDF (I wasn't producing it for myself) I wouldn't have noticed that something went all wrong.

Pawel