How about a Vector application?

How about getting back to a Vector application without the HTML, Live Effects, and Photo Editing mishmash the application has become over the past few versions?

I would like a Professional Vector Application with updated Pantone and CMYK support, Import and Export filters for current versions of vector formats. Include the ability to define custom stroke shapes and arrow heads/tails. A spiral feature would also be welcome.

Rather than the current four apps that overlap and confuse people, you could have Xara Vector and Xara Web & Photo. End the confusion and have two applications dedicated to specific audiences.

Or three apps for the 3 main divisions (vector, web, photo). I any case, I fully agree.

And I am pretty certain if we combed this forum, we could pull in a few more vector-related enhancement requests (and other new additions) pretty easily. You know, to make it easy for Xara to make a punch-list.

Take care, Mike

Hi Bill,

I agree with your request for additional vector tools and improvements. However, for clarification, does the inclusion of non-vector features interfere with your work flow, or is it simply that you prefer not to pay for features you don't use? If the former, specifically how may be of importance to the developers. In my case, I generally do not use the web features, but neither does their inclusion present a problem for me.

Given that Charles Moir has been on record as essentially saying that the software should work such that the user should not care whether he is using vector or raster objects, I seriously doubt you'll see the raster features removed.

Regards,

Steven...

Hi Steven, the increased occurances of "Out of Memory" errors with each updated version seems to indicate the vector features are being over crowded by the non-vector features.

Before the inclusion of all the Live Effects, raster editing, and HTML, older drawings with many nodes did not slow down a machine or have "out of memory" errors. Now a file that worked flawlessly in Xara X¹ has problems in XDP4 and newer.

Perhaps my conclusion that the added features has caused the change in the application's behaviour is incorrect?

Try this google search http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...&aqi=&aql=&oq= and take note of the dates when the problems were posted.

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Originally Posted by Soquili

Now a file that worked flawlessly in Xara X¹ has problems in XDP4 and newer.

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Can you provide an example file please?

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Perhaps my conclusion that the added features has caused the change in the application's behaviour is incorrect?

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Yes, not quite correct.

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Try this google search .... and take note of the dates when the problems were posted.

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Please also notice that most of these new out of memory errors reported happened on HTML export. So if you don't do HTML export, you wouldn't encounter it. Besides, people are now creating much larger documents, which sometimes can reach memory limits. Especially websites.

Actually, recent version of the program are supposed to work faster than XaraX1. Now it can utilize multiple CPU cores and some code was optimized since then. New non-vector features are not supposed to noticeably influence performance or memory usage if not used. For example, mentioned web features are almost entirely implemented as UI and export filter code. So it is only executed on demand when you use these features.

John try the file from
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34967107/26356.xar

The file updates slowly in Xtreme 3.2.4 and is very much slower to respond in Designer Pro 7. Both apps are on the same machine. Intel Core2Duo with 4GB RAM running 32-bit Vista Ultimate.

I tried to upload the file to TG but received a "file too large" error.

Yes I came across the file size limit recently, but this is only due to the vbulletin 4 updated attachment manager. You can still upload a maximum 10Mb .xar file if you edit your profile and disable the new enhanced attachment manager. In other words, use the older attachment manager UI and you won't have the 'File too large' error.

Your file uses 26356 objects, most of which are the very densely drawn strands of hair which all seem to have 5.0 graininess 'repeat inverted' fractal cloud transparency applied as well. This is a huge redraw task for so many strands of hair don't you think?

On my dual-core W7 64bit machine with 4Gb RAM your file caused my DP7 to white screen when I tried to re size it.

I opened it in X1 but was warned that it contained non-essential and non recognized 'flash' properties which will be ignored.

Attachment 82788

Although it opened without any visual differences, it was also impossible to work with in X1 which froze completely (I had to close it via task manager).

Xtreme 4 was the same story - impossible to work with so from this experience, all versions acted the same with your file on my machine.

As a vector illustration application it runs rings around the others, but personally I don't believe a drawing such as yours is a suitable ask of it.

I agree that the added raster and web features make no difference to the program unless you actually use them in your file.
As some point in any vector application you are going to want to use some raster objects, even if it is just to trace them.

Thanks for the tip about the old attachment manager, but I have been using it since the last forum upgrade. The new attachment manager was too confusing.

There is no flash involved with the file I created, not sure why you would get that error message.

Very odd that you were not able to resize the drawing in X¹. I can resize and work (although slowly) with it in Xtreme 3.2.4 and older on my Vista machine. Designer Pro 7 does White Screen (not responding) when the older versions do respond more quickly.

I don't have an issue with the ability to import raster images. Having tools to edit that image is not needed in my opinion, that is why I have several dedicated raster image editors which are more comprehensive in that respect.

It is true that the drawing I posted is complex and most users will never get into drawing so many lines and convert them to shapes just to accomplish the look of human hair. As for the fractal cloud transparency that is the closest I could come to how a strand of hair looks under a microscope. ;)

I didn`t dare to ask, and nobody brought it up, until now.
So now I dare to ask, what has there been added or improved for
the vector side of the new version???
Can somebody please telle me, have I missed something?

Hi Dennis, no new vector tools in version 7.

Magic Snapping -- Live Copies -- Edit inside grouped objects to name but three very useful additions to a vector illustrators workflow.

Magic snapping and Edit inside I will agree with. ;)
Still have not found a use for the Live copies yet. :D

Hi Bill,

We aim to make the overall performance of every version of the program at least as good as, and better than, previous versions. Some new features will require more work to be done in some places and to compensate for that improvements have to be found elsewhere. So the balance is always shifting. If you or anyone reading this has an example where performance or responsiveness of the program appears to be worse then please tell us by posting to an appropriate forum or submitting a support ticket. We want to know about issues like this!

Thanks for posting this example, we'll have a look at exactly what's going on. As "Mr Shifter" said it's almost a worst case for any drawing program because it's a flat list of thousands of objects. That's not an excuse, just an observation! We do our best to handle difficult cases like this.

On a practical note: You could help the program by using Groups and Layers. The program then has fewer, larger "chunks" to deal with rather than thousands of individual objects. (Make sure caching is enabled.)

Phil

Hi Phil,

Initially the drawing was made on 28 layers and had many groups. Unfortunately I decided to use clipview to crop the objects along the bottom of the drawing and everything was moved to one layer. When I finally noticed that the other layers were in fact empty I deleted them. I also ungrouped the groups and a few moulds when I was analizing the image a few years after it was drawn.

well, I'll be back then when there are more vector enhancements, or when I am
in a better financial situation, because if I was, I would have upgraded anyway.
But now I have to prioritise, so aks my boss to pay me more ;)

I use Xara every working day and often not just for work, even when just doodling. I upgrade at every opportunity at my own expense because I design for a living, it's my number one design tool. Personally, I am totally uninterested in the concept of different versions but I can see the commercial sense in marketing a range in that way. But, for my purposes, I don't want a different version for web/graphics/photo. I'm a greedy sod who doesn't like task-switching, so I want everything in the one app, and in XDP7 I have exactly that. As for application errors, I cannot remember the last time in my almost 15 years as a Xara user of having an OOM error and, frankly, I'm a very delighted, self-confessed Xara addict and fanboy. XDP7 does everything I need. I could not ask for a better all-in-one web and graphic design product. I am sure there are plenty of XXP4 users out there who are as happy with their product as I am with my XDP7. It's all a matter of priorities, both for Xara and for the user.

Soquili, I agree with you. In a future post I will try to ask for some important vector improvements, especially if a Xara version uses the term "Pro". I am still using version 5, because I didn't find any new vector tools. IMHO, not a single software can match all the features of a single, pro application, so I am still using Photoshop for retouching photos or drawings, others apps for creating websites, etc. Lupen

Just for the balance: I personally would not purchase Xara as a Vector-Program alone.

While I don't use the Photo-Tools it was exactly the addition of fuzz-free Web-Capabilities to its DTP - Toolset which got me hooked.
The Web-Capabilities are a key Difference in comparison to similarly priced or even free (and quite attractive) Vector Programs.

Making specialized programs for a task is not necessarilly a bad idea - but hey - Xara is already so slim in comparison to many other Programs.

Bill - I do find the product overlap confusing. I am currently writing a Workbook on Website basics and there are annoying differences between products.

OTOH I have no problem with the integration of drawing, photo editing and web design under one roof. It means less time spent shelling out to other applications, even if the only inconvenience in that is pressing Alt Tab to go back in forth.

But I totally agree that the product overlap causes undue confusion among new and old users a like.

I suspect this is marketing's answer to Adobe's lite version of products, such as Photoshop Elements.

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Originally Posted by gwpriester

I have no problem with the integration of drawing, photo editing and web design under one roof. It means less time spent shelling out to other applications, even if the only inconvenience in that is pressing Alt Tab to go back in forth.

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It's more than that, I think. If you need two or more applications to complete one project then you have at least two files for the finished product and possibly two or more files to open, save and close when making subsequent changes. When creating a SME website using XDP I have everything under one roof, everything I need is in the one XAR file, the vectors, the bitmaps, the web layout. That's a huge productivity boost (and a major selling point) in my opinion and not something to be overlooked lightly. But if you don't benefit from such functionality then you clearly wouldn't share that opinion.

Differences in the same or similar features between products would appear to me to be incredibly annoying and is yet another reason I want everything under one roof. I admit it suits my workflow, and as such I'm a happy camper. If they split the flagship product into different products I'd be very, very sad. But then that's just me.

It is the main reason why I haven't upgraded this time and it is the very first time that it has happened. I also don't think Xara is going to change the way it is marketing its products as most of the development staff is more into increasing its html and bitmap capabilities rather than vector.

I located a working file for the original drawing with layers, groups, and moulds intact.

The sketching layers were removed but the layers used in the final drawing are all there with their objects.

This file is more responsive in Designer Pro 7 but still has some long lag times.

Thought I would post this file as a comparison to the other file.

Nice job. It certainly shows how useful layers are. It always surprises me how many Xara users don't use them.

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Originally Posted by pauland

Nice job. It certainly shows how useful layers are. It always surprises me how many Xara users don't use them.

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That baffles me as well. However, I've used Paint Shop Pro for my raster work since about version 3 (before that was DeluxePaint for DOS). When PSP introduced layers, it went from being a nifty step up from MS Paint to serious competition for Photoshop. So when I first picked up Xara X for vector work, organizing everything into layers was second nature.

-- Ben

Well. I support Soquili and will also appreciate vector-aimed application. I didn't experience any problem with additional functionality (yet). At the same time, all this stuff like html editor, 3d extruder or image editor scares me. I love Xara Designer for being a lightweight, efficient and professional solution. Nowadays, it's not so lightweight as CorelXara was : ). And combination of vector editor with FrontPage doesn't look too professional to me.

I don't mind this functionality while it doesn't affect on XDP basic features. But when I imagine what you guys can do if you have more time to concentrate on new vector functions - I start being jealous : )

Frip, none of the HTML export features are loaded with the application, so there's no added Web bloat. All the conversion is done on export/publish.
In fact when you are working on a regular print/drawing document, no web features are available anyway - it's as if your wish has come true ;)
Many of us are finding the Designer Pro X loads faster than earlier versions, it's still the lightweight application we all love.

(Have you seen the new vector tools in the new version?)

In any case I would not liken Xara Designer's web features as anything like FrontPage.

Personally like a hobby user when I perceived the Xara products at the beginning, bought several ones starting with Web Designer versions and after going to the Photo & Graphic Designer.

As my vision extended in the topic I understood that I really would like the Xara Designer Pro so everything is one. It is very comfortable to start the top product as one application and having everything. I still have the license for the separate ones but since two years did not open those.

I think too many programs these days try to do too much. We use photoshop for photos, illustrator or coreldraw for vectors and webdesigner for web. Coreldraw comes with corelpaint but it is not as good as photoshop. You just have to pic and choose the best tool for the job.

That is a great drawing Bill :D

Stygg

Thanks Stygg.

Bill asked and gave examples of what he would like to see in maybe a new version of our software and I think we should stick to that. This is an old thread which has been resurrected and I agree with Bill with maybe the exception of a Swirl tool mind you if it was like Corels new tools this year it could include twirl, pucker, bloat, scallop, crystallize and warp. The tool that I would like to see and one that I use a lot in Illy would be the Blob brush and if they did that they would need to give a proper vector brushes as well: http://layersmagazine.com/illustrato...lob-brush.html

i agree with the two application proposal, its the best way to give everything the right flow