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Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
The recent thread in the Dear Xara forum: http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?t=46955
This is not the first time the subject has been brought up on the forums.
I have never seen the way the arrows currently function as a problem.
May I be enlighten as to why others think otherwise?
When I have made real arrows for use with a bow, the nock and arrowhead are added to the ends, not embedded within the shaft length. :);)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
The way I see it is that an arrow will often be pointing at something specific, so it is important that the arrow tip remains on the target point even if the line width is subsequently changed.
With the current system a change of line width will resize the arrow head and so the tip will move.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Lines with embedded arrow ends would be easier to use and very useful for quoting in a technical drawing.
Also, note that when you use an arrow to point some elements in a drawing you lose the exact point if you decide to change the line weight.
Luciano
See file
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Hi Bill,
First, I have no problem with the arrows; they are easy enough to adjust.
I see your point, but, generally, aren't arrows used to point to something with the 'point' of the arrow (usually) falling on a desired spot? CAD (and Corel) users would probably see this as the expected/preferred behavior.
:2c
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
If I decide to change the width of the line an arrowhead is attached to, I would expect to have to adjust it's position relative to what is being pointed out. This is only logical to my way of thinking. Increasing or decreasing the area covered by the shaft and arrowhead demands a reposition relative to objects within the same plane that are not increased or decreased in size.
If other software works differently, they must be using some "flawed" logic; from my view point. ;))
I'm afraid this is probably a subject that will have many differing view points but none will persuade me to change my brand of "logic". :)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
"I shot an arrow into the air,
It fell to earth, I knew not where;"
[because it didn't 'point' where I expected it to.]
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1809–1882), U.S. poet. The Arrow and the Song
;)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Ah but Bill, wouldn't it be even better if I didn't have to adjust my end point at all because if it is already touching the object that it is pointing to and in the right place? Changing my line width shouldn't mean I have to change my line length.
Think flow chart software. There are many examples of this that work the way I think arrows should.
The way it works now, once I draw the line (which I have to do first no matter what) and then apply arrow head and end, I ALWAYS have to readjust my line. That is just a bunch of extra steps IMHO and in no way logical. Again IMHO, when I draw an arrow from something and to something, I want it to start and stop exactly where I start and stop where I draw it. I don't think I'm anywhere near alone on this one.
Just my $.02
Eric
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Hi Eric,
Flowcharts are something I always did by hand, before computers were able to run anything but block graphics.
If I changed the width of a line I must redraw the flowchart and reposition all the elements. :D
If the line required to be resized that meant the entire flowchart was too small for it's desired purpose.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
OK Bill,
Not getting through to you with the flowchart analogy, let's go with work flow.
The way it is now (the way you think is 'normal'):
Draw a line from A to B
Apply Arrow head and tail
Choose Arrow head node.
Nudge with arrow keys until point is at B
Choose Arrow tail node
Nudge with arrow keys until tail is at A
The way that I and others are asking that it work in the future.
Draw a line from A to B
Apply Arrow head and tail
My way is much shorter and more simple because I have already placed the line ends where I want them. This seems logical to me.
Eric
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Sorry Eric, but that does not seem logical to me. The Arrowhead must be added to the existing line length otherwise your line must be shortened by the size of the arrowhead. This means your original line length was not accurate for the intended purpose to begin with.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bcire68
The way that I and others are asking that it work in the future.
Draw a line from A to B
Apply Arrow head and tail
Same for dimensioning in technical drawing (as mentioned above). Just checked Visio and it works this way.
The advantage of computers is that they allow you to work more efficiently. Well, theoretically...
If you want to draw by hand, well, ok... :-)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
In the proposed system the line lenght INCLUDES the arrow.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
If you intend to include an arrowhead, then plan your design accordingly.
Do not begin drawing your line to an exact size that you know will be inaccurate when you include the arrowhead.
It is a simple matter of getting your plans thought out before grabbing the mouse or pen. :)
Begin a line and add the arrowhead.
Turn off Scale Line Width.
Use the Shape Editor Tool to move your line+arrowhead to it's final resting place. :D
Anything else in my not so humble opinion is wanting the software to make up for failure to plan ahead. ;)
How other software works isn't of importance, use a program for how it was designed rather than wishing it worked another way.
If future versions works differently then adjust your planning.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then Bill. (Though I don't understand how you can argue with the work flow improvement.) The line in my example is the perfect length. It is the ends that are not being placed on the line correctly. You believe that they should extend beyond the line. I believe that they should be placed on the line without extending beyond it.
OK. I can't resist. I will try one more time to change your mind. Let me turn the tables on you. Can you explain to me what possible benefit I get out of doing things your way (assuming that I had a choice)? As it stands now, I can't see one. The benefit of my way is improved work flow.
Eric
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
An arrowhead is an addition to the line, logically it must extend beyond the line.
The most effective workflow is one that follows logic. To me the most logical thing is to add the arrowhead before making the final length for the line. ;)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
If you intend to include an arrowhead, then plan your design accordingly.
How long is the arrow head and tail? The sizes are not exact, how can you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
How other software works isn't of importance, use a program for how it was designed rather than wishing it worked another way.
If future versions works differently then adjust your planning.
That isn't exactly a fair comment is it? You started this thread from one that was started in the Dear Xara section asking for changes to the functionality, and asking why people want it.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
OK. Old dog...new trick. (both of us). Your way isn't logical to me, and I can accept that my way isn't logical to you. I'm happy to leave it at that.
(It doesn't change the fact that you are WRONG WRONG WRONG, though.) ;) :))
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Eric, I am often WRONG but it is logical for me. ;))
BTW the arrow sizes are precise.
For example the smallest preset arrow size (left most in the arrow gallery) is a factor of 3. On a one pixel line the widest part of the arrowhead is 3 pixels, extending one pixel above and below the line which is centered. The length of the arrow head is 1.16666667 times the width at it's base.
If you use XaReg you can change the preset arrowhead factors to your liking.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Ah so you can skip the adjustments in your method...if you want to do some math first?!?! Let me take a few moments to calculate exactly how many pixels away from an object I need to start and end my line. That must be a work flow improvement. lol
As long as it is logical to you Bill. More power to ya'.
Eric
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Hmmm...try Bill's method
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
...Begin a line and add the arrowhead.
Turn off Scale Line Width.
Use the Shape Editor Tool to move your line+arrowhead to it's final resting place...
and snap it to an object, guides or grid. Where does the tip of the arrow point? :confused: Respectfully, it seems kinda illogical, doesn't it, Bill?
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Snap is something I do not use.
Even when making technical drawing, trying to make extremely precise measurements is impractical.
Anyone following the drawings will have to make adjustments according to the equipment and/or instruments being used at the time they are performing the work.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Bill,
I think that the point "we" are trying to make is that we are not drawing a line and adding arrowheads, we are trying to draw an arrow - from A to B. Snap arrow from point A to point B. One operation. I also don't see any benefit from adding arrow heads to the line length, they are supposed to be part of the arrow.
As a CAD draftsman, I've never come across a software that follows your logic of adding the arrow to the line. In my opinion it's not logical, and I too will agree to disagree ... I find it very difficult to follow your reasoning, or your logic, and like Eric don't see any possible advantage to doing it your (Xara's) way .....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
... Even when making technical drawing, trying to make extremely precise measurements is impractical ...
If I had to pick one fault with Xara, it would be just that imprecision ... Accuracy and snaps is very hit and miss. The precision should not be limited by the software, but by the users requirements.
Why does the program have the ability to zoom to 25000% if precision is impractical?
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Hi Keith,
Feel free to disagree. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss-kalm:374896
...we are trying to draw an arrow...
So you agree that the arrowhead must be part of the line before making it the length needed? :D
Otherwise it isn't an arrow, simply a line. ;))
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
So you agree that the arrowhead must be part of the line
Absolutely I do ... Agreed ... "the arrowhead must be part of the line" ... not added to it!
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
hahaha...so you must create the arrow before it becomes and arrow.
:nerd:
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
I rather think that the tail and head just say how the line should be presented, not added to.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
But to be presented they must be added to the line. Otherwise it remains a simple line. ;)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
But to be presented they must be added to the line. Otherwise it remains a simple line. ;)
Bill that's you're interpretation, considering the parts as integral to the line is equally valied. In reality most people want a line with arrowheads that point to a certain position. It's inconvenient to have to adjust lines to suit differrent arrow head sizes, when there's a simple alternative. We're in it for the result not the experience!
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Paul until or if Xara Ltd makes a change you and I must live with the way it currently works.
I've had my fun for today. Hope no one was offended by me pulling your leg. ;)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Don't usually then usually disagree with Bill, but in this matter I'm on the side Eric and his supporters, it seems far more sensible to me that if you have a line of any width/length the arrowhead and tail should remain within the limits of the line width/length, not increase it's dimensions.
In fact, I fail to see any advantage that can be gained that on increasing line width and/or length, the line is also increased, dependent on the size of the arrow and tail.
However, this one is an old chestnut, as any search of the forums will return the same results as this thread is already showing. It's very similar to whether the line width should be added externally, internally, or centrally as is the current default.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soquili
Paul until or if Xara Ltd makes a change you and I must live with the way it currently works.
I've had my fun for today. Hope no one was offended by me pulling your leg. ;)
I missed the "pulling my leg" bit - thought you were just stating your case!
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
In AutoCAD, the arrow (or whatever shape or style one is using) is a block with an insertion point that puts it at the end of a line. For example, with an arrowhead, the insertion point is at the tip rather than at the tail. With a dot style arrowhead, it is at the center of the dot. With all of the notations and dimensions in an architectural drawing it would be awful to have to keep an eye on what an arrow is pointing at if one is just changing a leader's line thickness.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Egg Bramhill
It's very similar to whether the line width should be added externally, internally, or centrally as is the current default.
Well, would it not be possible to have the choice of which of the abovementioned default settings available to the end-user? That would seem to be most helpful and would satisfy both camps.;)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
I couldn't agree more Bob. ;-)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Egg Bramhill
I couldn't agree more Bob. ;-)
Me too.
It is one of those old request. Given the option I would use inside most always.
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
My 50c worth.. as a suggestion, you could have a toggle selector to add arrowheads to the line or include them.
Attachment 75117
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sledger
My 50c worth.. as a suggestion, you could have a toggle selector to
add arrowheads to the line or
include them.
Attachment 75117
I would buy that!
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Hey! we'll be having icons for choosing whether lines are inside, outside or straddling the edge of a shape soon.. ;-)
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
Seems reasonable to me..
Attachment 75121
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Re: Curious about why Arrowsheads should not extend from the line length.
I can see one reason why it's done the way it is, though admittedly I'm looking at it 'artistically' not CAD
the attached is a regular line curve with an arrow added in XDP6 - the line element is highlighted in red
if the arrow were pulled back along the line, then to look 'right' the arrow shape itself would have to be modified to follow the curvature and I fancy that not to be simple, espcially as moulding is not one of the programs strong points...
just imagine the line ending in a wiggle :D
just my :2c