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I for one would like a dedicated node edit tool as i am tired of having to juggle the shape editor tool around its modes as an input tool Vs editing tool...
Which is rather tiresome in my view, a dedicated node edit icon/mode would save people a few steps when node editing, eliminate some frustration which can occur when in a hurry and also stream line the work flow when needing to edit nodes ETC....
What is it about a 'node' that you would like to edit which can't be done with the shape editor?
Lines, nodes, handles, cusp or smooth joins can all be easily adjusted with just this one tool.
Is there something else?
I'm with Sledger, I don't understand what you mean. For me the shape editor tool is close to perfection, not quite perfect, but damn near.
I use it with, straight-line and cusp (corner) modes selected as default.
That way you can lay down straight lines and then drag them to curves if needed, you can place new nodes anywhere on a line with a single click, on a straight line it will be a corner node and on a curve it will be a smooth node.
You change each node from one state to another with a double-click.
Selecting a node and pressing delete will delete that node, pressing the B key will break the line at that node, dragging an end node over another end node (of a selected line) will connect them.
Dragging a bounding box over a selected line/shape will select several nodes at once, or shift-clicking on several nodes in turn will do the same for picking out nodes in more complex arrangements.
Holding down the CTRL key while placing a new node will constrain the angle of the straight line to vertical, horizontal or 45 degrees.
You can set options so that pressing and holding space will temporarily switch to the select tool and back to the shape editor when you release space.
Using the shape editor this way, with the select tool on the space bar and having the mouse wheel set to zoom when rotated and pan when pressed and dragged, means I can work very fluidly with minimal interruptions for tool changes.
Damn! I love the shape editor in Xtreme, it's fan-bloody-tastic!
I would love to see a hot-key and drag operated width setting. Say ALT+drag left or right with the shape editor, or even use the mouse wheel, to adjust the line width.
And a quick and easy way to select line shapes would just about make it perfect, but that may be a tall order.
Hi Mark,Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkMyWords
Click inside the line 'Set Line Width' box and roll your mouse wheel to change the line thickness. You won't loose the currently selected tool by doing this, so you can go back to your drawing and continue (without clicking back to it) ;)
Steve - what you say is true
However it only scrolls through the preset line widths - which is very limiting when trying to make fine adjustments to line weight - in fact, its really not much help at all to me.
what I would love to be able to do is scroll the wheel and the line thickness adjust in real time continuously rather than in steps - much faster to find exactly the right size value...
Yes, I knew about this. Steve/Handrawn gave the reply I would have, I often manually put in widths that are not on the drop-down. Perhaps illustrators are more fussy about the weight of lines than designers, but thanks anyway.
If you are doing precision work and want to do it quickly or have a lot of it to do, then I can think of two nodes functions which would be very useful:
1- select nodes, and then double-click to get rotation handles to interactively rotate the selection
2- select nodes, and then be able to use the Alignment dialog. For cusp nodes you can use the Info Bar's angle input field, but that requires typing in values, one node at a time. Snapping to a guides is another options, but too slow.
i know its not a big deal or anything but it does seem to trip me up enough to be annoying...but not enough that i can put my finger on the exact behavior that sees be expecting one behavior and experiencing another...Quote:
Originally Posted by sledger
Perhaps this will remedy itself when i have a bit more experience with extreme...
That is one thing that i don't like about this tool actually and the reason i do not use it...i.e. that the way it is set-up almost mandates that you are going to need to change nodes via editing after the fact by double clicking or changing icons or what ever....Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkMyWords
I don't think this is easy.... i would much rather put down a corner with a right mouse and have it be created right the first time than to have to revisit a node to set it right after the fact...
This double handling would not be needed if the right mouse were freed up (in my view...) from serving up a right click menu for this tool.... and were instead used to insert corners....
i wouldn't expect you to agree (considering that you think it is already almost perfect) but personally i would like to see the whole ethos (with respect to this tool) of considering edits as a necessary and integral part of the input process itself change to a mindset where by people could expect the right node sequence to be created first time... so by tweaking the input process itself to eliminate the need to edit as much as possible this could well be achieved....(as i said by utilizing the right mouse for something else rather than the normal standard right click menu...shock horror...)
If you don't use it, I'm not sure what you do instead ...... Throw caution to the wind, and get used to how it works. As Mark stated, for me "the shape editor tool is close to perfection" ..... it just seems to work. Offhand, I can't think of any improvements that I would make.Quote:
Originally Posted by morphonius_821
Diverging a little from the thread.....(as we are now discussing the input aspect of the node editor tool)
I guess its work flow and method of this tool must appeal strongly to a certain demographic (in its current form) as you and a few others seem to love it and be determined to champion its cause...
And I don't disagree with you really in most respects.
I agree that this tool has allot to commend it and i actually applaud it in many respects.
However everybody has their deal breakers and having to double handle/edit nodes as an integral part of the input process is a deal breaker for me...
I mean of course some tweaking/editing is always going to be necessary in some cases due to the user never being perfect...
but personally i resent having to double handle nodes to get the node type right in the first place.....
Thats where the input method should come to the party. i.e the way i see it the input method is the vehicle for creating the correct node type and having to rely on manual style editing to me signifies a total failure in this respect.
To me double handling (by way of revisiting nodes with double clicks) or changing modes mid stream should never be necessary to switch between corners and curve nodes....(This is my opinion...)
And for me this is a total deal breaker.... totally unforgivable....
I realize you don't mind double handling your nodes...(thats the way i see it anyway...)
and i realize you don't think this way and actually like the set-up the way it is....(i can not understand this personally but i understand people are different so enjoy it in its current state...good luck to you i'm glad you like it the way it is...)
But i don't believe unfortunately i could learn to live with this as...as i have already said this is a deal breaker for me... and i real shame actually as other wise i totally agree with you....aside from this the tool is awesome.....and further more i dont think it would take much to fix this tool (as an option) without needing to change the way it currently works.
I.e a simple option in the settings to have a (right mouse = sharp corner )option would make me happy and people like your selves who do not want this would not have to use this option.....
But for people like me.... i could not use it otherwise...
Nodes (and lines, handles) always have to be *re visited* when drawing or illustrating with vector tools (unless I am pushing button with Vector Magic or some such for a quick result)
Curve handles need pulling/pushing, lines need moving, nodes repositioned via nudging and join type toggling. It's normal work flow for everyone I have watched who draw and illustrate with vector tools.
If double-click doesn't suit your style, maybe try using the hot keys ('S' and 'Z') with your left hand while drawing with your right ;)
I see no objective arguments here.
I get the point, as far as specifying the type of node, in other programs one click will put down a corner node and a click and drag will put down a curve node. If you are used to working like that, or with something similar, then it must be a jolt to come up against the way Xtreme does things. Believe me, I have argued that Xtreme should incorporate more industry-standard controls and hotkeys, to avoid just this kind of thing. The forums here are often filled with those who are 'troubled' by the change in method Xtreme dictates, I was one of them. I have to say though, after some time working with Xtreme, it is still ahead of the competition. How long they can maintain that lead, with 'tune-ups and tweaks' is hard to say.
Personally, I see no reason why Xara could not incorporate the facility to lay down one type with a left click and another with a right click or hotkey and click. The more 'hot' controls, as opposed to icon and menu clicking, the better as far as I am concerned.
As for workflow, the vast majority of my lines are curved and I find that I only occasionally have to double-click to change a node from the default corner/straight-line mode. I tend to shape curves by laying down a straight-line then dragging the line and, if needed, adding a new node to the curve - which will automatically be a curve node.
Yeah this one is one i would love to see happen and it doesn't look too hard (to me a lay person) to implement and it would sure make me and i know of quite a few others happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkMyWords
Well i guess its easy to say that when the object in question is the opinion of various subjects.Quote:
Originally Posted by sledger
Right click=corner point is allot easier than toggling between keys on the keyboard what ever spin happens to be on your ball.
Justify your opinion whatever way you see fit...but in the end you like it one way and i would like slight changes made to accommodate less steps for those who appreciate this...
Because your preferences just so happens to co-inside with and support the current state of the app and this tool etc.. is very good and very convienient for you but it does not justify your position objectively in anyway.
If you want to get objective: with current work flow for this tool vs my suggested changes to the current work flow (ie... right click for corner points) then try number of steps, number of hands required or number of clicks required....to achieve the same results (for inserting a single sharp corner after a succession of curve nodes) with any one of your current methods vs my proposal.
Sorry to have to disagree with you (if that ruffles any feathers: i hope you are ok with me disagreeing with you and also for doing so in no uncertain terms...) but i figure if I'm going to stake my opinion and have it opposed quite strongly then it would be amiss of me not to go into bat for it.
I'm well aware that you and a few others are quite happy with the way things are and don't see the merits of my proposal... perhaps i can change you minds with the objectivity you seem to find amiss in my own statement.
I think you will find for the purposes of inserting a corner point (the whole basis of my suggested change) in any case my suggestion wins the number of steps race...one click.
One right click for a corner has to be less steps then holding another key to change a mode or double clicking on something then editing....
That has got to be objective enough an argument for you.
And considering that my proposal would not even necessitate that you would have to even use this proposed option I would say any objection to it would have to be purely subjective.
Nothing wrong with disagreeing with another persons point of view Morphonius, as long as we are all polite everything is hunky-dory. Sorry if I came on a bit strong, but I do like the shape-editor and, inadvertently, became somewhat defensive.
The pen tool does work in a similar way to other programs in this, I think. Click to put down a corner node and click and drag to put down a curve node, but I have never really used that tool, perhaps I will give it a try.
Morphonius your argument doesn't necessitate any change in the program anymore than whom ever you are arguing with.
It will be as Charles Moir and the Xara Developers wish it to be.
The feature was designed to work as it does for a reason.
As users of the program we do not need to know why, only the how.
Adobe nor Corel explain why their tools work a specific way.
Please remember there is nothing that says anyone at Xara Ltd will be swayed by anything said in the forums.
This Dear Xara... forum was created by the Moderators and was not requested by anyone at Xara Ltd.
Morph:
Don't worry, the advantage of having people demonstrating a different method, suggesting, or requesting a new one can lead to improvements in workflow and/or the program itself.
I'm sure many users in this forum appreciate this approach. Sometimes it is difficult to convey ones "point" ... we all have our biasis.
I think by demonstrating the number of keystrokes or "three-handed" processes is a good approach and one that will encourage us all to think twice.
Is there a hot key to make one of the tools delete nodes? If not I would like a tool that does this but only in combination with a hot key. I would also like this tool to add nodes in a single click. Sometimes when double clicking, instead of getting a new node, I've inadvertently moved a line.
Sheff you are referring to the functions of the Shape Editor Tool.
Click a node to select it then hit the Delete Key to remove it.
To create (add) a node simple position the cursor on the outline when the cursor becomes an arrowhead simply click. See attached image.
A single click with the shape editor places a new node. Select a node with the shape editor and press the delete key to remove that node.
Ooop! Bill beat to it.
Re; my previous post - Just been playing with The pen tool. This seems to have most of the functionality of the shape editor, but not quite all. I'm not sure of the point of this tool? Why not simply include the function of placing a curve node, perhaps with CTRL -click and drag, to the shape editor and remove the pen tool altogether? Or does it have other functions I haven't seen?
purely to make illustrator users 'feel at home' - so it is said [dating back a bit]
I like the pen tool for certain things, but then I am no master of the shape editor tool
Morphonius: You are right, it is a bit odd that you can't immediately create one type of node or the other in the shape editor tool.
Relying on the current creation mode or double-clicking to change the node's type after creation both upset the workflow because they force you to think about the type of node at the "wrong" time - I mean, not at the time you are creating the node.
MarkMyWords has the right solution - use a key modifier to change the node type that will be created when you click. We can't use right-clicks because they are standardised to bring up context menus now. (I realise there are exceptions to that standard but that's how right-clicks /should/ be used.)
Since the Shape Editor doesn't use any key modifiers when handling clicks that should be fairly easy to implement without affecting the existing working of the tool.
Please don't assume that we will be able to do this, though. There are so many other things to do.
Phil
Actually, what I was looking to eliminate was the select before delete node. If there was a tool which would simply delete nodes as I single clicked them. Otherwise it's, select, delete, select, delete. Granted, I could select a batch of them, but I can only drag and select rectangular shapes. If I could lasso a bunch of nodes and delete them, that would be fine, but that's not possible right now.
The pencil tool kind of works, but you have to make sure that it is in proximity to the line so the cursor changes. I would like for it to stay in the mode where you can keep adjusting the shape.
What about a double-click to auto-delete?
You can use shift+select the nodes you want to delete
No matter... its an ongoing conscious effort of mine to de-emote my posts so i understand you 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkMyWords
Yes i'm aware that my posts will most likely amount to nothing and any argument i come up with to support a new feature etc may well fall on deaf ears and fail to find a sympathetic audience here or anywhere...Quote:
Originally Posted by Soquili
But that does not mean i will not put forward my opinion in a forum when i see an opening...
Whether Charles or Xara agree with me or not is most likely a business decision and im guessing the fellow is a business man first and foremost...
Weather or not he will read this post i don't know but he is on this forum so i'm guessing the chances are at least fair that he would stumble across it...
But then i again im not just trying to convince him i think allot of people are resistant to change even though they may not have given any given idea due course...
I think this is a good one and one that involves very minimum code and one that will be beneficial to a great many (perhaps not you or a few others here but enough to make it valuable)...
i'm actually a very old hat when it comes to suggesting improvements to apps...its a thankless task...
even when you get a hit you get no thanks, no recognition and no acknowledgment from those who shoveled poop on the idea one week and somehow fail to recognize this when they praise it months or years latter.
But changing something is often difficult politically i think most of the progress in apps like this often can come from new starts or fringe projects which when they come to some fruition will be brought up by the big players for 50 x the cost of implementing similar change gradually...
Careful David Hewitt we may decide your new identity is too similar to your old one.
Debating is not what these forums are about. Making a request is all that is needed, if you feel you need to debate things do so in personal emails.
There is no need to threaten me...i have not incited anything (and i made no attempt to hide that)...
And most people don't mind debate on these topics or when people don't share their views and are willing to explain why this is so...
Im not a member of the xara cheer squad but i do concede there is much to cheer about (i use it) but how is xara going to improve if they do not get good feed back on what people feel needs changing?
No threat David....just a reminder.
These forums are not a debating society. Simply state your opinion then leave it alone. Repeating yourself is not needed.
(nice to see that people on the development team are looking in.)Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilM
I sorta intuited that "your hands were tied" on the right click menu thing...(or that it was something xara did not want compromised)
Generally i totally agree with you as im a big believer in the power of the right click menu and in its ability to serve up useful content in every situation.
This is why i thought of introducing this "right click corner" thing as an option only...but if this prospect makes people nervous then i guess other options could still achieve the same.
So i do understand the stance here totally.
But there still needs to be a way to serve up a corner with one click and also a curve point with one click with no modifiers even with this limitation....
Perhaps as a compromise you could enable customization for mice with extra mouse buttons so this could be achieved with-out compromising the universality of the right click menu?.....
But i should add here that i think this is not the only issue with inserting corners with the shape editor tool as for example:
if you are placing down all curve nodes and then hit the "L" key and then place down one node then "C" and resume placing down curve nodes...
ie inserting one corner node...then the "cornerness" of this node seems to apply to the previous line segment ie created between this node and the last and not so much the whole node (ie lines go in both directions.)
this means that a single corner node does not create a corner but a straight line segment with a line curving out of it which means the outward flowing line must be manually edited anyway so even if you could place down a corner with one click as i would like...still under the current scheme it seems you would still need to edit it anyway....
I propose that a corner point should produce a sharp corner......(both sides of it LOL it take two sides to make a point...)
Also i have interesting ideas (which is kinda related) concerning what happens when you delete nodes in the pen tool (object editor or any other.. more later):
currently it seems that when deleted any node simply vanishes and ignors the current state of the underlying path which is re-generated to reflect the nodes on either side...(which is logical from in a kinda puritanical sense).
But it could be argued that it makes more sense that the neighboring nodes should auto adjust to attempt to as best as possible maintain the old line with the new reduced node set....
Perhaps the alt key could be used to accomplish this.
or even a node reduction icon next to the node reduction slider could be employed to dictate when happens when nodes are removed...
(again not big changes but i think cool ones.)
Are you familiar with the Smoothing slider??????
Oops I see your are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sledger
May I remind everyone that only one feature request per thread is allowed in the Dear Xara forum.
This forum is also not for lengthy discussions or debates about features. It was created to have a single place for request and concise posts so that the Developement team does not have to weed through lengthy discussions and for easier moderation.
At this point I am closing this thread as it has gone far beyond a feature request.